The final straw(s)

[brooklynbaseball]

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

I don't think you are the only one with these sentiments. What I can say is that there is still joy in collecting for many collectors, including myself. It's all a matter of perspective. Just this morning I was informed of some ebay things that will definitely help in the sports-card fraud dept on their site. I can't say too much about it but suffice it to say there are things being done, numerous things, to help clean up the hobby. It is no different than any other situation with large amounts of money in an unregulated (for the most part) industry. It is always caveat emptor and sometimes the "emptor" can be overwhelming.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

You make all valid points. However, many have said this and say 'they are done with hobby' then in a short while they are back. It happens so often I have talked about starting a list. I wonder what the draw to come back to hobby is after all those true things you have said.

[brooklynbaseball]

I am sure that others have stated what I have, the difference with me is simple. I find no joy in being taken advantage of, I find no joy in watching people lose their money to forgers, I find no joy in watching auction houses with no conscience gouge their customers, and most important to me, I just find no joy in this den of thieves and greedy scumbags. I have nothing but respect for those who choose to continue to try to clean up this hobby, but at some point you need to realize it's a losing battle. I'm at the age where I don't need anything else to make me frustrated, angry, or disappointed. I have the nightly news for that... This community on Net54 was (is) one of the only worthwhile parts of the collecting community, I wish you all the best in your pursuits...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

I am sure that others have stated what I have, the difference with me is simple. I find no joy in being taken advantage of, I find no joy in watching people lose their money to forgers, I find no joy in watching auction houses with no conscience gouge their customers, and most important to me, I just find no joy in this den of thieves and greedy scumbags. I have nothing but respect for those who choose to continue to try to clean up this hobby, but at some point you need to realize it's a losing battle. I'm at the age where I don't need anything else to make me frustrated, angry, or disappointed. I have the nightly news for that... This community on Net54 was (is) one of the only worthwhile parts of the collecting community, I wish you all the best in your pursuits...

Most of the hobby is at that age Anyway good luck to you. If you change your mind and you are back that would be great for the hobby

[Hankphenom]

Wow, you must have had a lot of really bad luck in your hobby endeavors! As someone else commented, yes, there are bad guys, but in what area of your life is that not the case? And we've all had bad experiences, but I would put my ratio of good experiences to bad at a minimum of 10 to 1, and I would say the same about the people involved. You have to be smart and and you have to be careful, sure, but a "cesspool" of "thieves and scumbags?"--no. It's not perfect, but it's hardly that.

[brooklynbaseball]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow, you must have had a lot of really bad luck in your hobby endeavors! As someone else commented, yes, there are bad guys, but in what area of your life is that not the case? And we've all had bad experiences, but I would put my ratio of good experiences to bad at a minimum of 10 to 1, and I would say the same about the people involved. You have to be smart and and you have to be careful, sure, but a "cesspool" of "thieves and scumbags?"--no. It's not perfect, but it's hardly that.

Wow- "bad luck" is not a relative term here. I don't know what world you live in, but in mine, almost all areas of my life are devoid of "bad guys" because I am smart enough to keep them out of my life. If you disagree with my analogy, fine, but if you think this hobby is not polluted, you are blind.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

I am sure that others have stated what I have, the difference with me is simple. I find no joy in being taken advantage of, I find no joy in watching people lose their money to forgers, I find no joy in watching auction houses with no conscience gouge their customers, and most important to me, I just find no joy in this den of thieves and greedy scumbags. I have nothing but respect for those who choose to continue to try to clean up this hobby, but at some point you need to realize it's a losing battle. I'm at the age where I don't need anything else to make me frustrated, angry, or disappointed. I have the nightly news for that... This community on Net54 was (is) one of the only worthwhile parts of the collecting community, I wish you all the best in your pursuits...

Before you unload your collection try taking a break. Put all you stuff away in a safe place and just forget about it.

I felt the same way several years ago and took a few year break and now enjoy collecting a lot more. I am mainly a card collector but it is just as bad as the auto/memorabilia side of collecting.

If you do decide to return make a list of the people you will not do business with for whatever reason(s) you have. Stick to that list and do not buy from them because buying from the scum just enables them to keep on going. At this time my list of scum is about as big as the list of people I will buy from.

[silvor]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

For better or worse, other hobbies are the same. Fake products, A holes, egos, people just trying to take your money. I've been through or am involved in several hobbies/pursuits and realized the best thing for me is to keep an arms distance at all times. Find the parts that are enjoyable and just stick with those and don't put too much time or money into it.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I agree with shelving the collection and taking a rest.

From what I recall, you have many higher-ticket HOF items. Perhaps a change of focus might breathe some positive air into your hobby? My guess is you're a Dodger fan--if so, there are countless interesting players from Brooklyn we've all spent years reading about. They aren't HOFers and many aren't household names, but they've always been incredibly fun to collect. I'm not talking of the mass-produced, multi-signed Ebbets Field 16X20's signed by 95 second string Dodgers or those Branca/Thomson "FrankenJerseys"! I've purchased unique Billy Cox items in the past and have always enjoyed that. The list of colorful characters is too numerous to mention in full. There's the sad and inexplicable case of Len Koenecke, or how about Hugh Casey, who only took a toothbrush with him on road trips, buying all his clothes as he needed them? And of course, the risk of forgeries with players such as these is significantly reduced. Secretarial versions? Sure, but the collector and industry knowledge regarding Dodger clubhouse signatures makes it much easier than wading through a sea of Sharpie-signed Mantles, Williams and DiMaggios.

[alifaxwa2]

My kid is 7. I am doing everything I can to keep him away from this hobby. Instead of bringing him into it, I am embracing everyone of his little kid obsessions so we can do those together, not this.

[keithsky]

As Ebay is a big company and alot of collectors go there for there items they could make a big difference in the hobby by policing there site for fraud but they refuse to do it because of money in my opinion. This has been beaten to death about Ebay not caring and until they do care about it nothing will change with the hobby. When scumbags find out there stuff is fake they go to Ebay so just think if Ebay didn't take their stuff either how much of the bad stuff will be out of the hobby. At least it's a starting point.

[alexanderautographs]

How sad. Much as I hate being tarred as one of those "greedy auctioneers", you need to take a couple of things into consideration:

- Auctions compete fiercely for material! Over the years, competition between auctioneers has caused consignment rates to go down...and forced buyer premiums up. So, you have to factor in that added cost when you bid.
- Expenses are way up. I am amazed that guys like REA can afford to publish and mail such monster catalogs! Never mind labor, rent, shipping. That postcard sent by certified mail costs about six bucks, so there you're being stuck.
- eBay is a den of thieves and cheapskates. Buy at reputable auctions, also invaluable.com and liveauctioneers.com.

Finally, I was privileged to have known Charles Hamilton, dean of autograph auctioneers and authentications. He wrote (paraphrased): "How boring this pursuit would be if not for the occasional fraud and forgery to add spice to the chase!"

[HexsHeroes]

. . .

I would be grateful if you would add me to the (growing) list of interested,
potential Net54 buyers of some of your collection's autographs.
My collection is at a point where purchase of one "want list" item qualifies for
consideration as a "great year", and any more than that counts as "too good
to be true".

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by alexanderautographs

Buy at reputable auctions, also invaluable.com and liveauctioneers.com.

Really? It didn't take long to find a few Mantle forgeries on those sites.


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...hed-photograph


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...-signed-plaque


https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...0-c-c0848ec824

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by alexanderautographs

How sad. Much as I hate being tarred as one of those "greedy auctioneers"

Finally, I was privileged to have known Charles Hamilton, dean of autograph auctioneers and authentications. He wrote (paraphrased): "How boring this pursuit would be if not for the occasional fraud and forgery to add spice to the chase!"

While I agree you have to be "Greedy" to be an auctioneer as you eat what you kill. That being said, when I consign things to auction, I personally feel it is obnoxious to have to pay a consignor fee to an auction fee that is already making 20% on the back-end. The variable costs to add my stuff is minimal and does not justify 20%, knowing that the item will sell for less than FMV as the buyer will consider the juice before making a bid.

I much rather buy and sell things here at close to FMV or consign to auction houses with minimal/no consignment fee.

As for Hamilton's quote, i think we are way past "occasional".

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by brooklynbaseball

It's been close to 30 years and over six figures in "investments" in this cesspool of a hobby. I have not "seen it all", but I have seen enough to convince me that there is no joy left in it. I and my family have been attacked by a forger who I exposed, I have been the victim of fraud (luckily I found the piece of shit) and I have been the purchaser of goods that were not authentic. I have used ebay, and a few different auction houses to sell off my duplicate goods, but now ebay does not seem to care about the plethora of obvious fakes that pollute their listings. And as I write this, I am in the midst of dealing with an auction house that is trying to charge me over fifteen dollars to ship a single postcard, that is valued at less than $100, after collecting a 20% commission for allowing me to bid on their item. I used to enjoy the thrill of the auction process, the nervous feeling in my gut as the clock was winding down, the anticipation of returning home to find the delivery of my newest treasure. Now however, the blatant greed of this "industry" has soured me to the point that I rarely look at my collection anymore. What makes it even worse, I have two sons, and I had always looked forward to gifting each of them with an equal share of my signed collection, now I feel as if I would be subjecting them to a nightmare of greed and fraud. I am a proud NYer, it takes a lot to make me "give up", but the white flag is going up, I've had it...

I know exactly how you feel, Sir.

I don't think anyone has tracked and followed the forgery industry more than I, and every day it becomes increasingly frustrating watching the scammers and the Florida Ring continue to mass-produce forgeries of Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Mays, Koufax, etc.

Ebay, for one, has become an enabler. When the EMR team (which was doing a helluva job) was jettisoned, that was when Mr. Florida went into Mass-Produce Mode.

There's a ring of approximately two dozen (they could be just one or two people) Florida sellers that are literally making a killing selling forgeries day-in and day-out.

These are people with no conscience.

There are days (and Steve Zarelli will confirm this) when I just want to quit exposing sellers of forgeries....I quit for a few days, and then I pick up where I left off.

My collection isn't huge at all, but the memorabilia and autographs I do own, I enjoy, and I'll be damned if I will allow them to push me out of the hobby.

And I will add one more comment....

The so-called Forensic Authenticators who have helped tremendously in perpetrating this mess......I don't want them to rot in hell....I want them to suffer indefinitely in hell.