Do You Like the Provenance on the Flip?

[Rhotchkiss]

We all know the "Black Swamp Find" and have seen it on flips; I have one card (a T206 Matty Dark Cap) that states "Endicott Find" on the flip and I have seen others; there is of course the "Copeland Collection"; and Lelands currently has a bunch of cards from the "Charles Bray Collection". I really like knowing who owned cards before I did, especially when the card is old and rare, but I don't know how I feel about it being stated on the flip. I have never paid more (or less) for a card because the provenance is stated right there on the flip, although maybe I would if it was the "Gretzky" Wagner or the "Nun's" or "Jumbo" Wagner.

Anyway, I am just looking at these cards in Lelands advertised as being from the Charles Bray Collection, and I dont know what I think or if I care.

What do you think about provenance on the flip (not just Charles Bray)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't care for it.

[pokerplyr80]

The only ones I've seen that I considered paying more for were the ones that said owned by Mantle. That would have been cool to own a card that was in his collection. Looking back I should have pulled the trigger on one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With due respect to Bill, I would just as soon not...

[Leon]

I won't pay much more but maybe just a little for known provenance. Knowing it came from a long ago collector means it has had fewer hands to alter it along the way. That doesn't mean all of these old collection cards are better, but there is a less likely chance they have been messed with, imo. Overall, I am kind of neutral.

[Jay Wolt]

Usually I like the pedigreed flip for cards from the players themselves like the Stengel & Mantle owned cards.
Also like the pioneer collectors like Lionel Carter & Frank Nagy.

The last card scanned, "The Collectors Collection" I'm not a fan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I won't pay much more but maybe just a little for known provenance. Knowing it came from a long ago collector means it has had fewer hands to alter it along the way. That doesn't mean all of these old collection cards are better, but there is a less likely chance they have been messed with, imo. Overall, I am kind of neutral.

I wouldn't trust certain auction houses not to have altered certain collections they submitted. Not saying it happened, just saying my trust level is not high.

[steve B]

I general I think it's cool, but I don't own any and probably wouldn't pay much premium if any.

It's pretty common in my other hobbies to list any important collections an item has been in. Some matter more than others.

[insidethewrapper]

I thought grading was suppose to be anonymous ! Do the graders know when they grade who submitted the cards or is the label done without their knowledge ?

[drcy]

Obviously depends on the significance of the name, but I think the provenance on the label is nice and interesting. No harm, no foul.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I thought grading was suppose to be anonymous ! Do the graders know when they grade who submitted the cards or is the label done without their knowledge ?

I assume anonymous applies to the person who submitted the card for grading.

[oldjudge]

Grading services should put in the flip what they can verify. How do they know where the card came from? Do they know if a card belonged to Mantle, or Stengel, or Bray--No. They just know what they were told by the submitter. I don't like it as I think it could be abused and would certainly not pay more for a card with it.

[Arazi4442]

Been on this forum for over a year now and I guess I should have asked earlier but where did the term “flip” come from? Why not just holder, case, etc.?

[conor912]

I crack everything out do it doesn't matter to me. That said, if I was a slabby, I wouldn't mind "once owned by Mantle" or the "2018 National" that the '55B pack break got...but the ones attributing to a particular collection/collector are pretty vein.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Been on this forum for over a year now and I guess I should have asked earlier but where did the term “flip” come from? Why not just holder, case, etc.?

I've always called it a label.

[barrysloate]

No one is suggesting you should pay more for a card from a famous collection, it's simply information available for you to use as you choose. I know one serious collector who is so concerned with altered cards finding their way into holders that he prefers to purchase cards that originate from oldtime collections. It doesn't guarantee anything but it gives him an added level of confidence.

But as Jay said, there must be some kind of near certainty of where a card originated or the labels really lose their significance.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wouldn't trust certain auction houses not to have altered certain collections they submitted. Not saying it happened, just saying my trust level is not high.

I also have very little trust in some of the same ones you do, though the main culprits are out of business now.
But there are circumstances where I think the likelihood of funny business is minimal...such as the Skydash collection and some others. I have had a few fairly original finds and they are cool. The Trucker Boy find stands out. All of those were very original cards. I think a few were even trimmed or hand cut back when they were collected a hundred years ago, but they were all very original as collected by a kid back when they were distributed. That provenance would have been sort of neat on the label, in retrospect. At least I would have liked it and known there wasn't any monkey business going on. This Arrelanes below boomeranged back to me and came from that collection.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Grading services should put in the flip what they can verify. How do they know where the card came from? Do they know if a card belonged to Mantle, or Stengel, or Bray--No. They just know what they were told by the submitter. I don't like it as I think it could be abused and would certainly not pay more for a card with it.

I read the write up when the owned by Mantle collection hit the market. It sounded like there was very clear provenance to prove he owned the cards.

[kailes2872]

The one that got away for me will always be Lionel Carter’s DeLong set. It was for sale a couple of years ago and I didn’t pull the trigger. Have regretted it ever since as they were all labeled as such in the set. The fact that it was the first set that he collected - out of the packs was so cool as he became such a collecting legend and held to high ideals for the hobby. I remember when someone asked him what he was going to do with all the money when he sold and he said something to the effect of “i’d Rather have the cards” was such a genuine statement and I wish I could have met and learned from him.

It was SGC vs PSA so that was a bummer but it looked fantastic.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Grading services should put in the flip what they can verify. How do they know where the card came from? Do they know if a card belonged to Mantle, or Stengel, or Bray--No. They just know what they were told by the submitter. I don't like it as I think it could be abused and would certainly not pay more for a card with it.

Having a label pedigreed is more then the submitter stating to the grading co. that so & so once owned this.
Many auction houses auction off lots from ballplayers who want to get rid of stuff or from ballplayers families
after the ballplayer passed away.
As an example, Hunts had a ton of stuff consigned from Ted Williams daughter after he passed away.
Trophy's, autographs, cards, clothing, coins...you name it.
This was 1 of the lots that I picked up & was happy w/ the provenance.

[T206Collector]

I love the "Black Swamp Find" provenance because you know the source, and the card wasn't altered. Folks who cross them over to SGC without the provenance are losing out big time on a future sale.

As I mentioned a few months ago, the Black Swamp Find made a significant appearance in the April 19 Heritage Auction. For those wondering whether the provenance of that collection still carries any cachet, consider the following:

A PSA 1.5 Jennings Red, horribly off-center, and with an actual tear in the border, sold for $1,560, because it was the only version of Jennings found in Black Swamp six years ago:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

The same auction also featured a very clean PSA 5 Jennings Red, well-centered, with no tears, and it sold for just a tic above at $1,680:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

Collectors are plainly paying for this provenance. Keep them in the BSF holders!

[Jobu]

I like it if the card came from a major find, really famous collector, or has a well-documented and available history. Not interested in anything else.

I would love to get this one slabbed as Jefferson Burdick Collection but have never asked if anyone would do it.

[Jay Wolt]

Jobu, SGC wouldn't slab mine w/ a pedigree, stating that anyone can stamp these.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Jobu, SGC wouldn't slab mine w/ a pedigree, stating that anyone can stamp these.

They wouldn't add Burdick's name to this one either when I asked them...

[CobbSpikedMe]

I have three of Lionel Carter's old cards and one of Frank Nagy's. They all have the provenance on the flips. I really like having them labeled as such to know I have a card that these collecting legends once owned. I could care less about such provenance as The Collector's Collection.

I also like when a find is noted like the Black Swamp Find, Skydash, etc. I think it just adds a little extra something special to the card.

I'm glad to read that so many of you wouldn't pay a premium for these. That means I can pick them up for reasonable prices and not have to pay a premium either.

[RCMcKenzie]

I like the Burdick stamps and the Buck Barker stamps to a point. I realize that if the price shoots up they may start popping-up all over the place. I like the F. Scott Fitzgerald story, but am suspicious of those cards. Realize I am suspicious of the Black Swamp find, so what do I know. Take it with a grain of salt. Here's a neat double-stamped Burdick graded PSA 1 MK. I would not pay more for a flip that had a contemporary collector's card like Charlie Sheen or Keith Olbermann. I may pay a little more for a "Gary Carter" collection flip, but not much...

[bnorth]

Jay that Eddie Mathews owned by Mickey Mantle is AWESOME!

There are a few people I would pay a slight premium for. There is ONE guy that I paid a bat sheep crazy high premium for.

I absolutely love my 3 "Ted Williams Collection" cards with the LOP signed by Claudia Williams from Hunt Auctions.

[Sean]

The only card I have is from the Harris Collection, and after the rumors of trimming, I don't regard the provenance as a plus:

scan0007.jpg

[Sean]

On the other hand, this card is rumored to have belonged to Sir Edward Wharton Tyger. That would be great on a flip.


scan0007.jpg

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Been on this forum for over a year now and I guess I should have asked earlier but where did the term “flip” come from? Why not just holder, case, etc.?

I'm not positive, but I believe it's a leftover from the very early days of coin authentication. The earliest certificates didn't even have a picture, and were replaced with ones that did because there was too much switching of lesser items. The certificate with photo got replaced with a holder for a similar reason.


There's a sort of coin holder that folds over sort of like a T201, but equally. With each side being a roughly 2x2 pouch. Some dealers who had certified coins would put the coin in ones side, and the folded up certificate in the other side. On non- certified coins it was usually a label with the coin information. Since you could flip it open to see the back, or read the information and usually price, it was the flip.


Those holders were PVC, and were already almost entirely out of favor by the 1970's, there are probably still some non- pvc ones made, but they're not common anymore as smaller coins can slide around and get a little wear.


Or I could be totally wrong.

[SetBuilder]

Will they put anything you want on the label?

I feel like sending in a card with something weird, like "Collection of Fred McPinperton" and see if it actually lowers the market price of the card.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Will they put anything you want on the label?

I feel like sending in a card with something weird, like "Collection of Fred McPinperton" and see if it actually lowers the market price of the card.

I think that "Harris Collection" already does that.

[GasHouseGang]

I picked up a couple with Lionel Carter on the label, which I think is great since he's such a hobby pioneer. However, I don't think I would have paid extra for that designation.

[DeanH3]

I also dig cards from early pioneers.

[commishbob]

The raw card version of provenance is this:

IMG_0006.jpg

When I picked up my starter set to begin chasing the '58s a portion came stamped on the back by 'Ray Tisler'. I got curious and looked on one of those white pages sites and found a Ray Tisler in his 70s who lives in California. His age would fit the timeline of a kid collecting this set. I was tempted to try to reach him but thought better of it.

[Fred]

How does SGC or any other reputable TPG service verify the "provenance"? Grading is one thing - verifying provenance sounds like a totally different ball game.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Sean

The only card I have is from the Harris Collection, and after the rumors of trimming, I don't regard the provenance as a plus:

Attachment 325810

Sean, look at that card as compared to other T206s in the same size holder and it looks like a Harris collection graded card....

If there's one topic that fires me up, it is the Harris Collection of T206 cards and how the heck they were allowed to be graded the way they were.

I couldn't agree more with the statement "I don't regard the provenance as a plus"

[packs]

If a card was owned by someone you didn't like, would you still purchase it?

I think that would answer how important provenance is.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Fred

How does SGC or any other reputable TPG service verify the "provenance"? Grading is one thing - verifying provenance sounds like a totally different ball game.

I agree. Particularly if such notations on flips do become more instrumental as selling points and impact value, when submitters would have a greater incentive to misrepresent provenance, even if it were to only be slipping a few items from outside a particular collection into group of others from a famous collection. The incentive would be there, and the TPG would have no way of knowing for sure. I think this is a tricky road to go down.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by packs

If a card was owned by someone you didn't like, would you still purchase it?

Yes I would, and I have.

[KMayUSA6060]

What premiums - if any - do the provenances have, especially key names/hobby pioneers?

[ZiggerZagger]

Like many have said, if it's from a historical Pioneer in the Hobby, then I do think it's of interest and I find it adds an extra bit of enjoyment to owning the card.

Also, truly significant finds like the Black Swamp and Lucky 7 were major events in the Hobby, and I find that provenance of interest, too.
Lesser finds -- meh -- they happen all the time. It smacks of desperation to make the find out to be more than it was.
I could get some cards labelled the "Grandpa's Attic Find", but not sure that's really of value...

Anything else beyond this is just Vanity, in my opinion.


09003.jpg09031.jpg08001f.jpg

[frohme]

Originally Posted by ZiggerZagger

Like many have said, if it's from a historical Pioneer in the Hobby, then I do think it's of interest and I find it adds an extra bit of enjoyment to owning the card.

Agreed, Jason - nice LC T206's!

I have a particular weakness (sickness?) for his T207's.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

I also dig cards from early pioneers.

Another vote for a card owned by Lionel.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I love this E98 Hal Chase that Lionel once owned. It goes to show that he had some nice low grade material as well as nicer condition cards.

I'm not sure why the image is so small, sorry about that.


.

[benjulmag]

Provided,

1. The grading company has adequate documentation to verify the provenance, and
2. The provenance dates the card to a time there was little financial incentive to alter, and
3. (I) The person from whose collection the provenance refers to and the dealer who then sold the card were people who could be trusted not to alter, or (II) the provenance refers to a high condition find for which there was little reason to alter, then

the provenance could mean a great deal.

A poster example would be the Rosen find of high number 1952 Topps Mantles. A card from that find has a much greater chance of being in its unaltered state than any other high grade '52 Mantle. As the price differential between 8's and higher and the rest of the field continues to skyrocket, I believe in time, if not already, documented Rosen find Mantles will sell for a premium.

To the point that how does one know that the dealer who sold a prominent collection did not alter the cards, the answer is that we probably don't. As such, unless the card was sold directly by the collector, and that person was of such integrity that he/she was not the kind of person to alter cards, provenance in that case probably means little in terms of having confidence the card was not altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corey, your post assumes people care if cards are altered. I question the extent to which that's true for many of the new generation of buyers/investors whose eyes don't seem to go below the flip, or who just assume the TPG got it right.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Corey, your post assumes people care if cards are altered. I question the extent to which that's true for many of the new generation of buyers/investors whose eyes don't seem to go below the flip, or who just assume the TPG got it right.

You could be right Peter, but ironic isn't it the notion that this new generation might not care if the card has been altered as long as the flip says what they want it to say? Wasn't the prime rationale for the creation of TPG to give collectors the needed assurance there was no monkey business going on with the cards?

It wouldn't surprise me if the next area of collectibles that explodes in value are full-production-run uncut sheets that contain HOFers. In theory they can be cut to create gem mint cards, and I'm not buying it that the process can't be done in a way to dupe the grader.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corey allegedly that was the point of TPG, but look how it started, with ASA and then with PSA slabbing the Wagner. The Harris Collection. I could go on. PSA has commoditized the flip. It's marketing genius even if it doesn't sit well with old timers/purists.

[benjulmag]

If and when the time comes that somebody does a nationally distributed expose on the tremendous number of graded altered cards, perhaps things might change. It would not be too hard to show the alterations -- simple comparison blowups of edges and corners of altered versus unaltered cards is all that would be needed in most cases.

I recognize I might be old school, but it still blows my mind to see blatantly altered high grade condition rarities sell for crazy prices.

Is it possible that this new generation of collectors/investors might care if they really understood what is going on?