Ty Cobb revisited

[orly57]

As many of you know, I am an avid Cobb collector. As such, I read quite a bit about him. I am sure that many of you know about the new book that vindicates him, but I thought you would be interested in this condensed version written by the author:

He was Major League Baseball's first superstar. The first man ever inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. And he still has the game's highest career batting average – .366 – almost 90 years after he retired.
His name is Ty Cobb.
Yet, despite his historic achievements, he is often remembered for being the worst racist and the dirtiest player ever to take the field.
If you know baseball, you've heard the stories: Ty Cobb would pistol-whip black men he passed* on the street. He once stabbed to death a black waiter in Cleveland just because the young man was acting “uppity.”
On the field, he was said to sharpen his spikes to cut-up rival infielders. He supposedly had no friends.* In the movie Field of Dreams, Shoeless Joe Jackson says that Cobb wasn't invited to the ghostly cornfield reunion because, “No one liked the son of a bitch.”
A lifelong baseball fan, I believed these stories when I set out to write the first authoritative biography of Cobb in 20 years. I'd been hearing them all my life and, like a lot of people, I took the repetition as evidence.
But, to my astonishment, as I delved into the source material – newspapers, census reports and personal letters – I couldn't find any proof that they were true.
On the contrary, Cobb's teammates on the whole seemed to respect him, defending him on the field and off.
His opponents said he played the game hard, but clean! Wally Schang, a veteran catcher was typical. He once said, “Cobb never cut me up. He was too pretty a slider to hurt anyone who put the ball on him right.”
One famous photograph from 1912 shows Cobb flying foot-first into the crotch of St. Louis Browns catcher Paul Krichell. It looks bad. But pictures can be deceiving. In reality, Cobb is kicking the ball out of Krichell's glove. He didn't spike the catcher. Krichell later said, "In a way, it was really my fault. I was standing in front of the plate instead of on the side, where I could tag Ty as he slid in.” Indeed, in 1910, Cobb actually asked the league to require that players dull their spikes!
And what about the bigotry – how could a man born in Georgia in 1886 not be a racist?
Well, as it turns out, Ty Cobb descended from a long line of abolitionists. His great-grandfather was a minister who preached against slavery and was run out of town for his troubles. His grandfather refused to fight in the Confederate army because of the slavery issue. And his father, an educator, once broke up a lynch mob.
On the subject of blacks playing with whites, Cob said, “The Negro should be accepted wholeheartedly and not grudgingly… The Negro has the right to play professional baseball, and who's to say he has not?”
Cobb attended many Negro league games, sometimes throwing out the first pitch and sitting in the dugout with the players. He said Willie Mays was the only modern-day player he'd pay to see.
As for that black waiter he supposedly killed? Well, in reality he was a hotel night watchman. And Cobb didn't kill him, he just scuffled with him. And – oh, yeah – the guy was white!
Now, Ty Cobb was, like the rest of us, a highly imperfect being – *too quick to take offense, too intolerant of those who did not strive for excellence with the same almost crazy zeal that he did. But a racist? A dirty player? Not true.
What is true is that almost every accusation against Ty Cobb's character finds its roots in the same source – un-fact-checked articles and books published after his death by a bitter, opportunistic journalist named Al Stump whom Cobb had once threatened to sue for making up stories about him.
It didn't matter that Stump had spent little time with Cobb, or that all of Stump's sources were anonymous; that sportswriters who knew Cobb rushed to his defense; or that Stump himself had been banned from publications for writing lies. The scandal was titillating, and it stuck.
When the legend beats the facts, print the legend. Meanwhile, a good man's reputation lies in ruins.
There are lessons to be learned here:
First, it's all too easy to believe lies about people, especially successful ones. Lies take achievers down a few notches, and we like to hear that.
And second, if a lie is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted as fact.
This has consequences, because lies are the source of much of the world's evil – like the evil of destroying a man's legacy; in this case, a legacy that should be celebrated.
Ty Cobb was the most exciting baseball player of all time. He once stole second, third, and home on three consecutive pitches. He once turned a tap back to the pitcher into an inside-the-park home run. He was not a racist or a cheat.
It's time to tell the truth about Ty Cobb.
I'm Charles Leerhsen, author of Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty

[KMayUSA6060]

Fantastic read. Fascinating that the smear campaign by Stump proved successful - from his point of view. Was there ever any evidence provided as to why Stump hated Cobb so much?

Makes me want to buy a Cobb - my first Cobb.


Thank you for sharing!

[orly57]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Fantastic read. Fascinating that the smear campaign by Stump proved successful - from his point of view. Was there ever any evidence provided as to why Stump hated Cobb so much?

Makes me want to buy a Cobb - my first Cobb.


Thank you for sharing!

Stump hated Cobb because he once sold him a card on the BST and left the sale price up for the world to see. Revenge was sweet and severe.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by orly57

Stump hated Cobb because he once sold him a card on the BST and left the sale price up for the world to see. Revenge was sweet and severe.

That bastard... How dare Cobb...

[T_Hamilton]

Orlando - would love to see pics of your entire Cobb collection if you are so inclined to show... I also collect Cobb. Own his T206 off shoulder, T3 and D304 General Baking Company

[invest]

I would love to see your Cobb collection too, Come on you already saw my entire Cobb collection, lol

Troy

[Stampsfan]

+1 on posting some of your items.

And if you can put your "buy" price beside each otem, we would all be better for it...

( It's a joke in case anyone didn't realize)

[BeanTown]

I'll play along. I do not own all of these so we will call this a fantasy collection

[BeanTown]

And

[petecld]

Based on a few people I have talked to it does seem like Cobb has been vilified a little to sell some books. I think this is one of the coolest Cobb items I have seen in a long time and it will be in our May auction:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

[orly57]

Originally Posted by petecld

Based on a few people I have talked to it does seem like Cobb has been vilified a little to sell some books. I think this is one of the coolest Cobb items I have seen in a long time and it will be in our May auction:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

Pete, I STRONGLY disagree with you. This is THE coolest Ty Cobb item that I have ever seen. I absolutely love it. And if you will allow a 30 year mortgage on it, I will bid.

Thanks for the requests guys. I will post once I get a key card I am waiting on from Goodwin. I will do a group shot then. The horse-and-buggy that Bill used to ship the item should be arriving any month now.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by petecld

Based on a few people I have talked to it does seem like Cobb has been vilified a little to sell some books. I think this is one of the coolest Cobb items I have seen in a long time and it will be in our May auction:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

I have to agree 100% Peter. POP goes up on yet another new discovery as it seems to be happening every other year now.

[Enfuego]

Cobb was definitely a unique personality off the field, but I think we can all agree that he was by far one of the greatest to step foot on a diamond


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ullmandds]

I had this piece commissioned by a local artist.

[orly57]

I love it Pete, but did he have to make the spikes so damn sharp? It's propelling the myth!!!😉 I love the two works of art side-by-side.

[orly57]

Some of you wanted to see my Cobb's. I went pre-war just over a year ago, and have been focused on Cobb for the past year. More specifically, I fell in love with these beautiful and often ULTRA-rare early Postcards. It was no easy task gathering these postcards in such a short while. In fact, I am pretty sure Jeff Lichtmann, Kevin Struss, and JC Clarke all considered getting restraining orders against me at some point. But they were all amazing with helping me gather them, and teaching me a great deal about these rare treasures.
The only way I can get anything to upload here is by using a collage app. I did what I could. This is what I have put together thus far:

[BeanTown]

Love the collage app and what a great Cobby collection you have amassed in such a short time. No restraining order nessesary as your "current market" offers are very nice and tempting to entertain. I have to stop selling/trading as I'm a collector and not a dealer! I'm glad I don't have to pick my favorite, but it would be one of the Christmas colors! (Rose PC or the Cracker Jack 14)

[orly57]

I stopped making you offers when you rejected my offer of my house for your Hubel Ty Cobbzilla. You wont sell me anything, but you have always been informative and helpful from the day I first started harassing you.

[Bicem]

Great Cobb collection Orlando.

[tobychin]

Great book well researched.

[CW]

Incredible group of cards, Orlando!

[invest]

That is an impressive collection Orlando!!! Thanks for sharing

Troy

[VintageBen]

way to go Orlando!!!! I think I like the T3 the best.

[ullmandds]

thx orly...I've had this artist make me 3 such baseball pieces using existing stereotypes...hence the spikes!

Very Impressive collection!

[mighty bombjack]

Any chance to show this off, especially on this side (as opposed to autograph forum, which is my usual haunt).



A close up of the inscription, which reads:

The "so-called" spiking of Baker. Looks like I am trying to evade him, he is in line, he looks like he is trying to spike my foot with his arm. To Rex, from, Ty Cobb

[orly57]

Wow!!! Wayne, that is awesome! Ty defending himself. Love it.

[brian1961]

Compelling and very well-written original post, Orlando. Your growing Ty Cobb collection is amazing. So glad for you to have the magnificent T-3; that card of Mr. Tyrus Raymond always does it for me. Bravo. Bravo. ---Brian Powell

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by orly57

Wow!!! Wayne, that is awesome! Ty defending himself. Love it.

Thanks, definitely among my favorite (and most valuable) pieces.

It's funny that the inscription tends to bring out and even reinforce whatever preconceived notions people have of Cobb. If you buy into the hate-filled version, this looks like he's being a dick and shifting blame. If you view him as a sportsman and competitor, the inscription seems playful and tongue-in-cheek. Either way, I love it.

[vansaad]

I love the enigma that is Ty Cobb. Here is my favorite Cobb item, a check written to his mother 27 years after she shot and killed his father. Made payable to Mrs. W. H. Cobb.

[BeanTown]

Wayne, that's a great image and a super cool auto with the subject matter done in Ty's hand. I bet you will be watching the Steel Tubes Cobb postcard in HA when it closes as yours has the same coolness.

Aaron, the check in another great item. I've never been an autograph collector, but if I was, I would collect checks like that. Very nostalgic looking and the auto you know is legit!

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by orly57

As many of you know, I am an avid Cobb collector. As such, I read quite a bit about him. I am sure that many of you know about the new book that vindicates him, but I thought you would be interested in this condensed version written by the author:

He was Major League Baseball's first superstar. The first man ever inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. And he still has the game's highest career batting average – .366 – almost 90 years after he retired.
His name is Ty Cobb.
Yet, despite his historic achievements, he is often remembered for being the worst racist and the dirtiest player ever to take the field.
If you know baseball, you've heard the stories: Ty Cobb would pistol-whip black men he passed* on the street. He once stabbed to death a black waiter in Cleveland just because the young man was acting “uppity.”
On the field, he was said to sharpen his spikes to cut-up rival infielders. He supposedly had no friends.* In the movie Field of Dreams, Shoeless Joe Jackson says that Cobb wasn't invited to the ghostly cornfield reunion because, “No one liked the son of a bitch.”
A lifelong baseball fan, I believed these stories when I set out to write the first authoritative biography of Cobb in 20 years. I'd been hearing them all my life and, like a lot of people, I took the repetition as evidence.
But, to my astonishment, as I delved into the source material – newspapers, census reports and personal letters – I couldn't find any proof that they were true.
On the contrary, Cobb's teammates on the whole seemed to respect him, defending him on the field and off.
His opponents said he played the game hard, but clean! Wally Schang, a veteran catcher was typical. He once said, “Cobb never cut me up. He was too pretty a slider to hurt anyone who put the ball on him right.”
One famous photograph from 1912 shows Cobb flying foot-first into the crotch of St. Louis Browns catcher Paul Krichell. It looks bad. But pictures can be deceiving. In reality, Cobb is kicking the ball out of Krichell's glove. He didn't spike the catcher. Krichell later said, "In a way, it was really my fault. I was standing in front of the plate instead of on the side, where I could tag Ty as he slid in.” Indeed, in 1910, Cobb actually asked the league to require that players dull their spikes!
And what about the bigotry – how could a man born in Georgia in 1886 not be a racist?
Well, as it turns out, Ty Cobb descended from a long line of abolitionists. His great-grandfather was a minister who preached against slavery and was run out of town for his troubles. His grandfather refused to fight in the Confederate army because of the slavery issue. And his father, an educator, once broke up a lynch mob.
On the subject of blacks playing with whites, Cob said, “The Negro should be accepted wholeheartedly and not grudgingly… The Negro has the right to play professional baseball, and who's to say he has not?”
Cobb attended many Negro league games, sometimes throwing out the first pitch and sitting in the dugout with the players. He said Willie Mays was the only modern-day player he'd pay to see.
As for that black waiter he supposedly killed? Well, in reality he was a hotel night watchman. And Cobb didn't kill him, he just scuffled with him. And – oh, yeah – the guy was white!
Now, Ty Cobb was, like the rest of us, a highly imperfect being – *too quick to take offense, too intolerant of those who did not strive for excellence with the same almost crazy zeal that he did. But a racist? A dirty player? Not true.
What is true is that almost every accusation against Ty Cobb's character finds its roots in the same source – un-fact-checked articles and books published after his death by a bitter, opportunistic journalist named Al Stump whom Cobb had once threatened to sue for making up stories about him.
It didn't matter that Stump had spent little time with Cobb, or that all of Stump's sources were anonymous; that sportswriters who knew Cobb rushed to his defense; or that Stump himself had been banned from publications for writing lies. The scandal was titillating, and it stuck.
When the legend beats the facts, print the legend. Meanwhile, a good man's reputation lies in ruins.
There are lessons to be learned here:
First, it's all too easy to believe lies about people, especially successful ones. Lies take achievers down a few notches, and we like to hear that.
And second, if a lie is repeated often enough, it becomes accepted as fact.
This has consequences, because lies are the source of much of the world's evil – like the evil of destroying a man's legacy; in this case, a legacy that should be celebrated.
Ty Cobb was the most exciting baseball player of all time. He once stole second, third, and home on three consecutive pitches. He once turned a tap back to the pitcher into an inside-the-park home run. He was not a racist or a cheat.
It's time to tell the truth about Ty Cobb.
I'm Charles Leerhsen, author of Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty

Great read!

[Kawika]

I read Leerhsen's book last year. Prior I had bought into the Cobb racist psycho caricature. My opinion was revised. That is a terrific assemblage of cards. I admire your scorched earth approach to collecting, reminds me of myself in earlier times. Here's one you'll need to pick up when the opportunity presents itself. (Mine is not for sale unfortunately; it's part of a set).

[BeanTown]

Whoa!!! David, that is a great Cabinet! How much more rare are the M110s compared to the T3? Orlando, stand in line if one of those pops up!

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

How much more rare are the M110s compared to the T3?

I don't have access to VCP nor the TPG pop reports so can only offer an anecdotal opinion. I have seen M110 Cobbs for sale maybe three or four times (and they might be the same couple of cards being re-sold) in the decade since I collected the set. Have seen a whole lot more T3s.

Here's my two together just for fun (two jpegs mashed together - scale may be off a wee bit).

[orly57]

That is gorgeous Dave. I owned one for all of 24 hours. I traded it for my 1907 Wolverine "Batting." The wolverine has only a population of 9, so I had to make the deal since it is part of my 1907 Cobb post card run, and who knows when another will pop up again.
As for the sporting life cabinets, there are more Ty Cobb T3's graded than there are sporting life cabinets combined (all six players). It is a tougher card, and I want one (for more than one day).

[BeanTown]

One of my favorite songs sang by Thompson Twins

https://youtu.be/JkS6QgCFsko

[byrone]

Thought this was a great item, a 1953 letter written by Ty Cobb to a young Eddie Mathews. In the letter, Cobb praises Mathews' talents and wishes him well, and carefully warns Eddie of the potential pitfalls he could face.

Very thoughtful and kind of Cobb, once again showing a side that most people were/are unaware

http://www.net54baseball.com/newrepl...te=1&p=1654238

[mr2686]

Great Cobb items! We (over on the autograph side) had a spirited debated a few years ago about Cobb. For me, the stories about him both on and off the field (mostly negative) did not match with many of the letters he wrote to friends and fans over the years...they were mostly very nice and cordial. Add to that the players he helped financially over the years and it really doesn't add up. Was he perfect, no. He probably had as many if not more flaws than most people, but I really don't think he was any worse during that era than say, Babe Ruth.

[LEHR]

There are some great Cobb items here! Thanks to all for posting them.

[KendallCat]

I finally grabbed my first Cobb this year and might look to grab a nice T206 if one presents itself at the Natty.

[TimCarrollArt]

Just finished this Cobb piece a couple of days ago. I used some 2010-2013 A&G commons & some 1982 Topps to make this one. 16.5" x 29".

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by TimCarrollArt

Just finished this Cobb piece a couple of days ago. I used some 2010-2013 A&G commons & some 1982 Topps to make this one. 16.5" x 29".

Very, very cool, Tim!

[ullmandds]

He always signed in green...just like this one!

[insidethewrapper]

Orlando, great collection of Cobb's and in only 1 year ? Wow, that is amazing.

[Yoda]

Being a Cobb collector myself, I have often wondered why, forgetting for a moment it is Tyrus, the D304 Brunners of Cobb is so coveted by collectors. I don't find it a particularly attractive card, a bit cartoonish like a w strip card. Is it the rarity, condition, set etc.? The price it fetches at auction is astonishing.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Orlando, great collection of Cobb's and in only 1 year ? Wow, that is amazing.

Thanks mike. I have since sold both CJ's and added these 3. All of which I have posted on other threads.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Being a Cobb collector myself, I have often wondered why, forgetting for a moment it is Tyrus, the D304 Brunners of Cobb is so coveted by collectors. I don't find it a particularly attractive card, a bit cartoonish like a w strip card. Is it the rarity, condition, set etc.? The price it fetches at auction is astonishing.

I disagree Most Cobb images to me are fantastic, and the less-used the image on multiple cards the better. The D304 set as a whole is cartoonish as it is and the Cobb image is one of the few closeups in the set. I don't like it as much as the T227 image but certainly more than the E101/102 etc. image which really appears like a cartoon to me.

[Bicem]

All that blush really brings out his cheek bones.

[Joshwesley]

That Detroit free press post card is going to be worth 6 figures before it's all said and done.
The one with him smiling

[orly57]

Thanks Josh. I don't disagree. There are only 2 know in the world (Jeff has the other). The rare early postcards use actual photos of Cobb, which is pretty cool. I can't think of any standard Cobb cards that use actual photos until maybe 1916 or so.

Jeff, I am with you on the D304. I love that card, and don't see it cartoonish in the way I see the E102.