The Toughest Hall of Famers to Acquire?

[KMayUSA6060]

Who are the toughest HoFers to acquire a copy of their playing days card(s)?

Let's see some examples!

[barrysloate]

I'll start with Billy Hamilton, Bid McPhee, and Ed Delahanty. Their cards are available, but they are scarce and expensive.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I think there has been a good thread or two on this I'll try to dig up at some point, but love these threads!

[sycks22]

Jesse Burkett's are pretty tough as well.

[oldjudge]

Al Spaulding, George Wright

[rats60]

What about 20th century? Would it be the guys who played between 15 Cracker Jack and 33 Goudey. Most 19th century Hofers are going to be tough due to how few cards were produced prior to t206.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Josh Gibson.

[dougscats]

There are some 19th century players and Negro Leaguers whose cards are virtually non-existent.

Twentieth Century?

Wagner and Plank, Youngs, Newhouser are all fairly tough though readily available.
Probably Satchell Paige for a Major Leaguer, as his ML career was short and his card wasn't printed more than a few years.

[rhettyeakley]

On an individual item where one was actually produced...Frank Sellee.

Many of the early Negro leaguers just never had anything until the collectors issues of the 1970’s, so they would technically be impossible not the toughest

[brianp-beme]

Here is what I posted on my thoughts (with narrower focus) on this last year. It is from this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=219783&page=2


I will approach this question from a narrowed perspective, because it is within the following guidelines that I have always collected, which is based upon availability of pre-War2 cards. (20th century Pre-1942 cards, for crying out loud).

When I set my self-imposed guidelines, I eliminated all players whose careers were mostly in the 19th century, due to expense. I also eliminated almost all of the executives, broadcasters, etc. due to the lack of availability. Also due to the lack of availability I removed all of the Negro League players. What remains are 20th century HOF players whose careers were mostly before World War 2. The following are the ones I always considered tougher to track down Pre-WW2 cards due to the player being in fewer popular sets during their playing/managing careers.

Big Names:

Honus Wagner - in a decent amount of sets, but less frequently seen because of his absence in almost all the tobacco issues

Eddie Plank - not in that many sets, and incredibly tough in the most popular (T206)

Lou Gehrig - in some more commonly issued earlier 1930's sets, but still not as many as you would think based upon his status


Others:

Willie Keeler: 1910 era cards at the end of his career

Jimmy Collins: in fewer sets than Keeler

Jake Beckley: thankfully in T206 set, otherwise not much available

Elmer Flick: in fewer sets than Keeler

Hugh Duffy: at end of playing career during 1910 era

Joe Kelley: at end of playing career

George Davis: not in many sets

Joe McGinnity: at end of career in 1910

Addie Joss: untimely death in 1911

Jack Chesbro: thankfully in T206 set, otherwise not much available

Gabby Hartnett: in E120, and 1933 Goudey, otherwise surprisingly not in many of the prominent 30's issues (other Goudey, Diamond Star, Play Ball)

Ross Youngs: short career, mostly featured in strip sets

Casey Stengel: not in many of the common sets

Wilbert Robinson: surprisingly in MORE sets than expected

Stan Coveleskie: career falls in the 1917-1932 'dead zone' card era

Bill Southworth: seems to be overlooked in most sets

Charles Comiskey: executive, but featured in prominent sets like Cracker Jack and Sporting News

Branch Rickey: fortunately featured in Cracker Jacks and V100 sets

Bill McKechnie: in limited sets

Ducky Medwick: missing from early 30's sets, and most Goudey issues

Luke Appling: mostly mid to late 30's sets

Billy Herman: besides 33 Goudey, not in many sets

Fred Lindstrom: overlooked in most 30's sets

Al Lopez: not in many sets

Dizzy Dean: short career cut short his card appearances

[bigfish]

Deacon White

[Misunderestimated]

I've been at this for (too) many years and I have found the hardest to be:
Negro Leaguers, Pioneers/early stars and certain non-players. Some do not even have cards issued from during their careers.

Here is a list of some of the most difficult from each category.

Negro Leaguers generally require international Cuban and sometimes Puerto Rican or Mexican issue.
There are people who know much much more than I do about this and I hope they will share there wisdom. Here is my gloss on the harder ones that are out there: Pete Hill (only a few exist), Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey (basically one issue), Oscar Charleston (not nearly as rare but very very expensive), Jose Mendez, Christobal Torriente and "Pop" Lloyd
These are generally thousands of dollars in any condition and they are not likely to be found in "high grade."

Significantly, many of the great Negro League players do not have cards issued in any "sets" during their careers and these include Josh Gibson. There was a card issued soon after he died in 1950-51 by Toleteros (sp?) that has been celebrated.

Pioneers/ Pre-1887 greats - A.G. Spaulding, George Wright, and Candy Cummings are all very hard to find and the best bets are CDVs and "team cards." These are also thousands of dollars. There is a one-of-a-kind G&B card from the later 1880's of Spalding from his years as an Exec./Owner.

After 1887 individuals cards exist for just about everyone who played in the majors. The earlier players are harder to find -- such as Bid McPhee and Deacon White.

FYI : Jesse Burkett generally requires a bit of a cheat to get a career card -- the T204 was issued after he finished in the majors and for whatever reason he is not in the Mayos or the Fan Craze sets. There are some very rare premiums of him and a one-of-a-kind "Just So" card.

Of the last group -- umpires execs etc.. Some of the most difficult that were issued during their careers are:
Barney Dreyfuss long-time owner of the Pirates who shows up in a Tip Top Bread set from 1910 commemorating his team's success the year before.
AL Founder Ban Johnson - He's in the Fan Craze set but that's about it.
Umpire Billy Evans - only in the 1922 Exhibit set;
Umpire Bill McGowan -- in a card set issued by his umpire school in the 1949-50 and I think (not sure) something called the Safe-T set.
Manager Joe McCarthy is not particularly easy to locate. For whatever reason he was not given his own card in any of the major sets during his illustrious career. Strictly speaking the only card (as opposed to stamp or button or coin) of McCarthy card is in the 1936 World Wide Gum Card set.
Umpire Hank O'Day has a card as a player in the Old Judge set (before he became an umpire)... He was a lousy player.
Manager Frank Selee has a one-of-a-kind card from a game set issued in 1904: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=75560...
===
Also, I learned that there are cards of recent HOF inductee John Schuerholz from his tenure as the Royals GM (team issues "photo-cards" from the early 1980's) before he went on to greater fame as the GM of the Braves.. If any one has one I could use one.

[ruth_rookie]

Finding a mid-grade Joe Jackson has proven to be a daunting task for me. Heck, he’s even difficult to find in low grade. Although he’s not in the Hall, he arguably should be (from a statistical standpoint anyway). But that’s opening up a whole other can of worms.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by ruth_rookie

Finding a mid-grade Joe Jackson has proven to be a daunting task for me. Heck, he’s even difficult to find in low grade. Although he’s not in the Hall, he arguably should be.

Maybe Joe Jackson will be pardoned, and then elected to the Hall.

[judsonhamlin]

Doesn't McCarthy pop up in T5 and one of the Colgans/Tin Top/Red Border sets?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Here is what I posted on my thoughts (with narrower focus) on this last year. It is from this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=219783&page=2


I will approach this question from a narrowed perspective, because it is within the following guidelines that I have always collected, which is based upon availability of pre-War2 cards. (20th century Pre-1942 cards, for crying out loud).

When I set my self-imposed guidelines, I eliminated all players whose careers were mostly in the 19th century, due to expense. I also eliminated almost all of the executives, broadcasters, etc. due to the lack of availability. Also due to the lack of availability I removed all of the Negro League players. What remains are 20th century HOF players whose careers were mostly before World War 2. The following are the ones I always considered tougher to track down Pre-WW2 cards due to the player being in fewer popular sets during their playing/managing careers.

Big Names:

Honus Wagner - in a decent amount of sets, but less frequently seen because of his absence in almost all the tobacco issues

Eddie Plank - not in that many sets, and incredibly tough in the most popular (T206)

Lou Gehrig - in some more commonly issued earlier 1930's sets, but still not as many as you would think based upon his status


Others:

Willie Keeler: 1910 era cards at the end of his career

Jimmy Collins: in fewer sets than Keeler

Jake Beckley: thankfully in T206 set, otherwise not much available

Elmer Flick: in fewer sets than Keeler

Hugh Duffy: at end of playing career during 1910 era

Joe Kelley: at end of playing career

George Davis: not in many sets

Joe McGinnity: at end of career in 1910

Addie Joss: untimely death in 1911

Jack Chesbro: thankfully in T206 set, otherwise not much available

Gabby Hartnett: in E120, and 1933 Goudey, otherwise surprisingly not in many of the prominent 30's issues (other Goudey, Diamond Star, Play Ball)

Ross Youngs: short career, mostly featured in strip sets

Casey Stengel: not in many of the common sets

Wilbert Robinson: surprisingly in MORE sets than expected

Stan Coveleskie: career falls in the 1917-1932 'dead zone' card era

Bill Southworth: seems to be overlooked in most sets

Charles Comiskey: executive, but featured in prominent sets like Cracker Jack and Sporting News

Branch Rickey: fortunately featured in Cracker Jacks and V100 sets

Bill McKechnie: in limited sets

Ducky Medwick: missing from early 30's sets, and most Goudey issues

Luke Appling: mostly mid to late 30's sets

Billy Herman: besides 33 Goudey, not in many sets

Fred Lindstrom: overlooked in most 30's sets

Al Lopez: not in many sets

Dizzy Dean: short career cut short his card appearances

To me the hardest ones were George Sisler and Harry Heilmann. They weren't in the t sets or cracker jacks and missed 33 Goudey. Also Grover Alexander even though he was in CJ, not many other sets. Also, I agree with Ducky Medwick, not in 33-34 Goudey, but in Diamond Stars and 38 Goudey.

I wouldn't call anyone in t206 or 33 Goudey or Topps or Bowman sets had to get. They may have few cards, but they are plentiful. My list doesn't include 19th century players, negro league's players who didn't get a Topps or Bowman or some nonplayer Hofers.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

I've been at this for (too) many years and I have found the hardest to be:
Negro Leaguers, Pioneers/early stars and certain non-players. Some do not even have cards issued from during their careers.

Here is a list of some of the most difficult from each category.

Negro Leaguers generally require international Cuban and sometimes Puerto Rican or Mexican issue.
There are people who know much much more than I do about this and I hope they will share there wisdom. Here is my gloss on the harder ones that are out there: Pete Hill (only a few exist), Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey (basically one issue), Oscar Charleston (not nearly as rare but very very expensive), Jose Mendez, Christobal Torriente and "Pop" Lloyd
These are generally thousands of dollars in any condition and they are not likely to be found in "high grade."

Significantly, many of the great Negro League players do not have cards issued in any "sets" during their careers and these include Josh Gibson. There was a card issued soon after he died in 1950-51 by Toleteros (sp?) that has been celebrated.

Pioneers/ Pre-1887 greats - A.G. Spaulding, George Wright, and Candy Cummings are all very hard to find and the best bets are "team cards." These are also thousands of dollars.

After 1887 individuals cards exist for just about everyone who played in the majors. The earlier players are harder to find -- such as Bid McPhee and Deacon White.

FYI : Jesse Burkett generally requires a bit of a cheat to get a career card -- the T204 was issued after he finished in the majors and for whatever reason he is not in the Mayos or the Fan Craze sets. There are some very rare premiums of him and a one-of-a-kind "Just So" card.

Of the last group -- umpires execs etc.. Some of the most difficult that were issued during their careers are:
Barney Dreyfuss long-time owner of the Pirates who shows up in a set from Tip Top Bread set from 1910 commemorating his team's success the year before.
AL Founder Ban Johnson - He's in the Fan Craze set but that's about it.
Umpire Billy Evans - only in the 1922 Exhibit set;
Umpire Bill McGowan -- in a card set issued by his umpire school in the 1949-50 and I think (not sure) something called the Safe-T set.
Manager Joe McCarthy is not particularly easy to locate. For whatever reason he was not given his own card in any of the major sets during his illustrious career. Strictly speaking the only card (as opposed to stamp or button or coin) of McCarthy card is in the 1936 World Wide Gum Card set.
Umpire Hank O'Day has a card as a player in the Old Judge set (before he became an umpire)... He was a lousy player.
Manager Frank Selee has a one-of-a-kind card from a game set issued in 1904: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=75560...
===
Also, I learned that there are cards of recent HOF inductee John Schuerholz from his tenure as the Royals GM (team issues "photo-cards" from the early 1980's) before he went on to greater fame as the GM of the Braves.. If any one has one I could use one.

+ 1 This is a pretty accurate analysis. Definitely Negro Leaguers and executives.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by rats60

What about 20th century? Would it be the guys who played between 15 Cracker Jack and 33 Goudey. Most 19th century Hofers are going to be tough due to how few cards were produced prior to t206.

I’m not sure how rare they are but I’ve found it difficult to find cards I like of dudes who played in this era like Sisler or Heilmann.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I’m not sure how rare they are but I’ve found it difficult to find cards I like of dudes who played in this era like Sisler or Heilmann.

Both of them have very nice Exhibit cards IMO, I forget which ones, maybe the 22 Eastern Exhibits? I dislike for the most part the small black and white issues with the full body poses and only a teeny tiny head. Which describes several Alexander cards.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Both of them have very nice Exhibit cards IMO, I forget which ones, maybe the 22 Eastern Exhibits? I dislike for the most part the small black and white issues with the full body poses and only a teeny tiny head. Which describes several Alexander cards.

If you want a close up of his unhappy face, there is always his 1930 W517 card.

Brian

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

On an individual item where one was actually produced...Frank Sellee.

Many of the early Negro leaguers just never had anything until the collectors issues of the 1970’s, so they would technically be impossible not the toughest

.

[paul]

That's a beautiful Selee Jay.

A lot of this depends on your definition of a card. I don't count premium photos, CDV, and pins (sorry, Jay, that Selee really is fantastic).

With that in mind, here is my take on the toughies:

1. Frank Selee - his only card is the one of a kind Allegheny.

2. Al Spalding - his only card is the one of a kind G&B Spalding. It shows him as an executive. If you believe he was elected as a pioneer player, then he has only CDVs and studio cabinets, if that, and he would be excluded from my list.

3. Pete Hill - He has only the 1909 Punch (2 known) and 1910 Cabanas (1 known).

4. Jesse Burkett -- He has only the 1893 Just So (only 1 1/2 known) and the W600 (very, very tough). He also has a T204 which is arguably from his playing days because it shows him as a minor league player / manager. He also has a very rare Cameo Pepsin pin, but I don't count that as a card.

5. Hugh Jennings -- He has only the 1894 Alpha (1 known) and the 1902 W600 listing him as a player (almost as tough as the Burkett). Most people settle for one of his cards as a manager, but he was elected as a player.

6. Biz Mackey -- He is only in the Aguilitas set from Cuba. For whatever reason, this particular card in that set is extra tough.

7. Most of the other Negro League HOFers with cards from Cuba or Puerto Rico (Charleston, Lloyd, Mendez, Torriente, Day, H. Smith, W. Brown, etc.)

8. Bid McPhee -- only in the Old Judge set and for whatever reason he is particularly tough.

9. Deacon White -- only in the Old Judge and Scrapps sets. His Old Judge may be as tough as McPhee's, but the existence of his Scrapps card makes him a little easier overall than McPhee.

10. Joe McCarthy -- If you want him as a manager, he has only the 1936 WorldWide and the 1929 Blue Ribbon Malt, both of which are tough (though not in the same class as 1-9 above). If you want him as a player, his T5 Pinkerton is nearly impossible. His Colgan's Chips seems to be tough too.

Honorable Mention -- Willie Foster -- he is in the 1927 Mallorquina set from Cuba. The only known copy of his card is on an uncut sheet. If you count that as a card, he would be right up there with Selee and Spalding.

That's enough for now.

[sb1]

Burkett W600 & TTT Burkett

[sb1]

And Jennings as a player

[ValKehl]

Scott, nice cards! But, your T204 appears to be a T.T.T.

[sb1]

Ha! Good catch!

[paul]

Scott, I'm still in the market for your W600 Burkett if you ever want to let it go.

Paul

[tedzan]

Lefty O'Doul....11 year career....career BA = .349

So, why isn't he in the HOF ?


George C. Miller cards as nice as this one are very tough to find.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[KMayUSA6060]

This might work for Burkett.

Burkett N54, Horizontal

http://imgur.com/1fihx66

[oldjudge]

Paul-Deacon White also has Tomlinson cabinets, which are his true rookie cards. He also has several different other cabinets.
The Cameo Pepsin pin is Selee’s rookie collectible. They are not baseball cards by traditional definitions, but neither are M101-1 or M101-2s, scraps, photographs, postcards, etc. However, they are all interesting and all very collectible.

[Kenny Cole]

Selee only has one card, Al Spalding too, so far as I know. Pete Hill has three, Andy Foster is on a Mallorquinas sheet and has a card as well I believe. Off the top of my head, those would be the most difficult in an individual card. They are, btw, the cards I am also missing for my HOF individual set, I have the rest,

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Lefty O'Doul....11 year career....career BA = .349

So, why isn't he in the HOF ?


George C. Miller cards as nice as this one are very tough to find.




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It’s amazing to me that he’s not in the hall Ted. Better case than even Gil Hodges I think.

As for hard HOFs, I’ll throw out Eddie Roush. I’m a Reds fan and have been trying to snag as many Reds prewar cards that I can. Roush just has the 15 CJ and a hand full of strip/team set cards. Falls inline with his contemporaries but is someone I’m very familiar with.

[KMayUSA6060]

By the way, thank you all for the really great responses. I'm working on putting together one of every Hall of Famer. Originally, I worded it as "one card of every player from their playing days" but as someone brought up, some of these guys are more easily found as managers. So I should probably change the verbiage to state "one card from their involvement with MLB."

I recently consolidated some of the smaller Pre-War HoFers into some of the bigger HoFers (Cobb, Gehrig, etc.). As I move closer to completing the "big boys", it's interesting to see other people's struggles with finding many of these Pre-War HoFers.

Interested to hear more. Thanks!

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

As for hard HOFs, I’ll throw out Eddie Roush. I’m a Reds fan and have been trying to snag as many Reds prewar cards that I can. Roush just has the 15 CJ and a hand full of strip/team set cards. Falls inline with his contemporaries but is someone I’m very familiar with.

Tyler, it appears to me that Roush has many pre-War cards, including all of the M101-4/5 issues and E121 and related issues: http://www.vintagecardprices.com/bas...multi_player=1

[aljurgela]

These are some that are not often seen...

Pete Hill rookie (1909 Cabanas) 1 known copy
Jose Mendez rookie (1910 Punch) 2 known copies
Willard Brown -1951-52 Denia - Puerto Rican issue - 2 graded copies
Pop Lloyd - 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez - 6 graded copies

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Lefty O'Doul....11 year career....career BA = .349

So, why isn't he in the HOF ?






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Probably because he only played 6 full(ish) seasons, had 3 really high hitting ones, and played during the highest hitting era ever.

[triwak]

Kyle, here is the link to my HOF set. I've paid a small fortune for the Negro Leaguers (both individual and team cards), and for some of the early pioneers. But was able to obtain most of the others at fairly reasonable prices. As you can see, I'm not very picky with card condition, which saved me money so as to afford the biggies. Hopefully, this might give you some ideas.

Ken Wirt's HOF set:
http://s155.photobucket.com/user/triwak/library/

[Leon]

Those are off the charts. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by aljurgela

These are some that are not often seen...

Pete Hill rookie (1909 Cabanas) 1 known copy
Jose Mendez rookie (1910 Punch) 2 known copies
Willard Brown -1951-52 Denia - Puerto Rican issue - 2 graded copies
Pop Lloyd - 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez - 6 graded copies

[drcy]

Not a Hall of Famer, but James Creighton. I know of only one card (Peck & Snyder) with how many few copies of that, plus perhaps one or two photos.

Irrelevant to any years rules, Creighton should be in the HOF.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Leon

Those are off the charts. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Leon... some of my prized cards... Al

[orly57]

Historical importance and rarity aside, that Menéndez card is just a great looking baseball card.

[benchod]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

These are some that are not often seen...

Pete Hill rookie (1909 Cabanas) 1 known copy
Jose Mendez rookie (1910 Punch) 2 known copies
Willard Brown -1951-52 Denia - Puerto Rican issue - 2 graded copies
Pop Lloyd - 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez - 6 graded copies

Amazing!
Definitely envious!
The Mendez is spectacular as is the Pete Hill

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Selee only has one card, Al Spalding too, so far as I know. Pete Hill has three, Andy Foster is on a Mallorquinas sheet and has a card as well I believe. Off the top of my head, those would be the most difficult in an individual card. They are, btw, the cards I am also missing for my HOF individual set, I have the rest,

Kenny is right here, but also Pop Lloyd and Jose Mendez each have 2 graded copies of the 1910 Punch Cigarros series

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by orly57

Historical importance and rarity aside, that Menéndez card is just a great looking baseball card.

Amazing photography... here are both graded cards - I think that I had posted these before, but probably not together...

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by benchod

Amazing!
Definitely envious!
The Mendez is spectacular as is the Pete Hill

which I use as my avatar....

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by sb1

Burkett W600 & TTT Burkett

I believe Jesse also appears on the 1920 Koestler Bread set, holding a bunch of shag balls. I remember because I had one once.

[paul]

Yes, Burkett appears in the Koester Bread set, as a coach, long after his playing days ended.