Max bid at AH. Use it?

[Snapolit1]

I recently put a max bid down at an AH on an expensive card with a few weeks to go and immediately regretted it. My thinking is that the card is a few ticks away from where it may will end up, and that by locking down the spot 2 over where it is now I may land in the sweet spot. All conjecture of course. Plans could be scuttled and the card could run much higher. Do you guys trust the AHs when the say they won't abuse this information. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I suspect someone can easily see my max bid and can just as easily tell someone to bump it. These guys are in the business of maximizing sales, not in giving me a deal. Not targeting any AH in particular, but human nature is what human nature is.

[Rhotchkiss]

Steve, I have similar questions (although not so much the integrity side of it, i have faith - maybe one of the last standing), and I often use max bid thinking that I will own the sweet spot. I have have had mixed results. Recently, I placed a max bid at Goodwin on a t206 Evers CB and I was high bidder at one spot below (although I paid a hefty price). At the same time, I placed (what I thought) was a very healthy max bid and the sweet spot on the 1933 goudey Lajoie at heritage, and I was outbid with 12 days left (it is a pretty card). So, I win some and lose some. On the one hand, I wonder if I superficially drove the card up to early (where later in the auction maybe people have eyes for other things and the number of suitors on "my" card goes down?). On the other hand, I know what I may be on the hook for and that helps define other bidding before the auction ends; although, there are plenty of times I did not place placeholder bids bc I assumed I would win some other max bid, and then I get out bid in extended time and lost chance on other cards. Also, so many times I have placed a max bid, and been bid out by one increment and wish in retrospect that that extra increment was my max bid.


So, this is where I am - I have come to believe that I only place a max bid on real big boy cards or when I need a card bad enough I don't mind overpaying. That way I know what my outside liability is and I can bid on other things accordingly.

One other point- my max bid on the 1933 Lajoie with BP was over $30k, and I was sure that was enough To get the card (like $6k more than any other 2 had sold for). In my mind, that money was spent. Then I was outbid, which made me feel like I found money.... This is dangerous. I found myself looking at a bunch of crap I would not normally consider bc I felt I had money burning my pocket. Luckily, I have not acted on that impulse, this time. But I have in the past and now I have some random cards that I just don't need/want. So that is another downside of max bid when your max is not max enough

[x2drich2000]

For me, it really depends on the AH. Some I will absolutely leave a max bid without a second thought, others I find myself questioning if I should even bid at all. While it is true every company wants to maximize profits, there are definitely some auction house owners who value their integrity over profits. The tricky part is just figuring out which ones they are.

DJ

[slipk1068]

I don't trust any of them as far as a weak-armed center fielder can throw them. Not when my money is involved.

[x2drich2000]

Another use of the max bid I have used early in an auction is to automatically raise the bid price frequently to not allow as many other bidder the option of bidding during extended time. For instance, if I think a card will sell for $1500 and the starting bid is $100, I might put a max bid (or even a straight bid, depending on how much I want the card) of say $1000 right away and therefore limiting the number of spots other bidders can take.

[orly57]

I would only trust REA and Heritage on that. That's IT! I'm guilty of wanting to secure slots, so I understand. But I think that seeing the max bid up is too enticing for some lesser AH owners. They have some shiller match your max. I am pretty sure I lost a few thousand that way not too long ago.

[mechanicalman]

I wrestle with this same question. I absolutely want to believe that AH owners have learned from this mistakes of others. But just recently, I went to sleep with what I thought was an irrationally high max bid, which was four tiers higher than the current bid. Fast forward to 2am, and there's just one bid that bumps me to my max (not an incremental series of bids.) I did win the card, and I want to believe situations like this are the result of two collectors valuing the card similarly, but it does make you wonder.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well, i would assume there is a decent risk that the AH will get friends to bid up to your max. However you never know what the other real bidders would do as well. It will cost a few dollars overall, but it will cost you a few card if you dont put in the max bids and lose a prime bidding slot and lose a card unless you want to pay more than your max would of been

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by orly57

I would only trust REA and Heritage on that. That's IT! I'm guilty of wanting to secure slots, so I understand. But I think that seeing the max bid up is too enticing for some lesser AH owners. They have some shiller match your max. I am pretty sure I lost a few thousand that way not too long ago.

It would shock me if LOTG or Sterling ever ran anyone up.

[orly57]

Peter, I am sure they are excellent. I am just saying who I personally trust. I don't know the owners of those AH's, but if you say they are decent guys, I am sure it's true.

[felada]

Really? Ever read their terms and conditions at HA?

21. e Auctioneer, its a liates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots. Auctioneer or a liates expressly reserve the right to modify any such bids at any time prior to the hammer based upon data made known to the Auctioneer or its a liates. e Auctioneer may extend advances, guarantees, or loans to certain consignors.

Originally Posted by orly57

I would only trust REA and Heritage on that. That's IT! I'm guilty of wanting to secure slots, so I understand. But I think that seeing the max bid up is too enticing for some lesser AH owners. They have some shiller match your max. I am pretty sure I lost a few thousand that way not too long ago.

[swarmee]

I would never use it. Why not just bid the minimum each time? That way people can't push your bid up over a month, and you might just get it much cheaper than you think it will go.
Put in a cheap bid (to be a bidder on the item) and save your ammunition for auction ending time, like every other auction.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I would never use it. Why not just bid the minimum each time? That way people can't push your bid up over a month, and you might just get it much cheaper than you think it will go.
Put in a cheap bid (to be a bidder on the item) and save your ammunition for auction ending time, like every other auction.

well there are certain bidding slots

say a PSA 7 1954 topps al kaline...pretty much a 1000 card....if you dont grab a max bidding slot with bp at $1070..and you go to 910 (just throwing out numbers) and the next guy grabs 1070...the only way you get the card is paying over market price....but if grab the bidding slot...you at least have the best chance of getting the card at market price...yes...you wont steal it as the AH's friends will likley will bid it up to your slot..but you dont know if that would of happened in the first place, plus maybe you do get it cheaper and those bids from the AH's friends or anyone else dont come in


there are certain cards in certain conditions that we all know what the market price bidding lot is....so for those types of cards...if that bidding slot puts me just under that market price..and the bid above me would put the card at a price clearly over ebay for example...i dont see any harm in grabbing that slot

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with Jake. Given how bidding increments work, sometimes it's just rational to grab the slot before someone else does.

[jefferyepayne]

I only leave Max Bids if:

1. I'm too tired to stay up / not available at auction end,
2. run by auction houses I trust, and
3. that don't have rules that allow the auction house / employees to bid on stuff

Comments on #1 above - I prefer lot by lot, fixed ending times, or very early starts (noon) to extended bidding. Tired of trying to stay up all night to win something so have cut back on bids in those kinds of auctions but occasionally will put in a Max Bid if its something I really want

Comments on #2 above - Auction houses I don't trust include any that are 1) run by people who went to jail, 2) run by people caught cheating/stealing/shilling/allowing shilling, 3) run by people who cheat grandmothers out of their inheritance selling crap on TV

Comments on #3 above - If you don't know who does this, you had better start reading the auction rules for each auction house!

If I set a Max Bid with an auction house I trust and end up winning it at my Max Bid, I let that slide once. If it happens again they move to the DO NOT TRUST bucket.

jeff

[BeanTown]

Never a good idea to place a max or top all bid with any AH. I feel all AHs should have their lots close on a per lot basis or a hard close time. Making bidders stay up all night long to bid, promotes bidders to use the AH top all function. Heritage, Clean Sweep, Hunt, Huggins and Scott, Brockleman, etc... do the per lot closing while REA and Rhy do more of a firm close which does not go past midnight.

I don't see any benefit other than "tradition" for an AH to keep the auction open till the wee hours of the night and sometimes the next morning of the auction.

I've lost many lots over the years where I just fell asleep as I refused to place a top all bid. I would think an AH would want all the bidders who want to win that lot, to have a specific time to show up, and battle for it.

Again, I just don't see any good that can come out of placing a top all bid unless you want a certain price spot or you need your sleep.

[botn]

Everyone here assumes it is the auction house who is sponsoring, supporting or participating in shill bids being placed where a top all gets maxed. In some cases that maybe true but even houses who you trust can have consignors acting independently to protect their consignments which can have the same impact.

Unless you have no respect for your money, anyone bidding with Heritage should be wise enough to know about their disclosure permitting the house to bid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Plenty of good can come out of it. In light of the bid increments, you can lock up the slot most likely to win it, and not be forced to go another level higher when someone else takes it instead of you.

[mechanicalman]

I agree with Jay Cee: the up all night auction format is antiquated, and I believe, detrimental to consignors. As such, when it comes to consigning my collection in the future, I have personally ruled out AHs like Memory Lane, Goldin, Mile High, and dare I say, LOTG, as long as they use that format.

[ALR-bishop]

I do it for the reasons Peter enumerated....and because as an old guy I do need my sleep

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Another use of the max bid I have used early in an auction is to automatically raise the bid price frequently to not allow as many other bidder the option of bidding during extended time. For instance, if I think a card will sell for $1500 and the starting bid is $100, I might put a max bid (or even a straight bid, depending on how much I want the card) of say $1000 right away and therefore limiting the number of spots other bidders can take.

I use the straight bid for this purpose. I figure there are many bidders who throw minimal-sized bids on far more lots than they intend to (or can afford to) win, and then get more serious as the bidding overtakes what would be their max on many of these and they have to hunt for what's left. I don't like them hanging around in the wee hours looking to see if one of the cards I'm chasing is still available to them, so I sometimes try to freeze them out early, with a decent size straight bid that they will have to top before extended bidding. Not sure how effective this is, but I believe it has worked a time or two.

[Rhotchkiss]

A bit off-topic (and I apologize for that), but speaking of auction houses, anyone ever seen this on ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=...ctions&_sop=16


They effectively mixing ebay with traditional auction house, adding a buyers premium, and requiring in-person pickup (in Washington State) to boot??!

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

A bit off-topic (and I apologize for that), but speaking of auction houses, anyone ever seen this on ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=...ctions&_sop=16


They effectively mixing ebay with traditional auction house, adding a buyers premium, and requiring in-person pickup (in Washington State) to boot??!

You don't see many of these kind of auctions anymore on eBay. Lesser BP if you register direct with the auction house and bid direct. Then the biggest kicker is when you win something you have to deal with a separate shipper. They normally mark up the cost as they are doing it as a middleman, and is making a profit for their service.

[swarmee]

Yeah, I put some bids in on that one today as well as the one Thursday. They worked much cleaner than the previous one I tried bidding in which ignored a bunch of eBay bids that were higher than the sales price.
Probably would have won some lots on today's if I was in person and could inspect the cards better. With the tiny pictures from the auctioneer, I couldn't tell a bunch of grades on flips or T206 backs. Saw one lot with a Brown Hindu back and another I thought might have been the back stamp Ed is looking for.
Seemed like cheap prices for higher grade 1955 Topps All-Americans.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree with Jake. Given how bidding increments work, sometimes it's just rational to grab the slot before someone else does.

This is why I use the max bid feature. When I'm willing to spend X on a card might as well get the bid in first in case it is someone else's max and I don't want to lose the card to someone who wasn't willing to pay more than me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This is why I use the max bid feature. When I'm willing to spend X on a card might as well get the bid in first in case it is someone else's max and I don't want to lose the card to someone who wasn't willing to pay more than me.

Yeah, the odds you are going to steal something in a major auction are pretty infinitesimal in my opinion. Most stuff is going to go where it should, or higher. So, at least for what I am buying, I don't see much downside to locking up the bid level I want.

[aloondilana]

I can honestly state, I've won cards without my max bids being met in Love of the Game, Mile High and Goldin.
Goldin on quite a few occasions.
I don't like max bidding but sometimes it works out to get a card you want, esp of the next bid puts the price over VCP.

[darwinbulldog]

I do the same thing for the same reason others have stated (trying to snag the last non-overpriced bid increment before anyone else does). I think it's a good strategy for common stuff. I just picked up a nice post-war HOF rookie for the same price someone else wanted to pay. Expect I'll do the same next week.

[rats60]

I wouldn't ever leave a max bid unless you were in extended bidding. I don't think it is a problem with auction houses, but the competitive nature of bidders. If they see they are out bid, they may continue bidding until they are winning. I have placed my max bid before going to bid and won at the lowest level.

[Leon]

These are good examples of things many of us think about when bidding.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Steve, I have similar questions (although not so much the integrity side of it, i have faith - maybe one of the last standing), and I often use max bid thinking that I will own the sweet spot. I have have had mixed results. Recently, I placed a max bid at Goodwin on a t206 Evers CB and I was high bidder at one spot below (although I paid a hefty price). At the same time, I placed (what I thought) was a very healthy max bid and the sweet spot on the 1933 goudey Lajoie at heritage, and I was outbid with 12 days left (it is a pretty card). So, I win some and lose some. On the one hand, I wonder if I superficially drove the card up to early (where later in the auction maybe people have eyes for other things and the number of suitors on "my" card goes down?). On the other hand, I know what I may be on the hook for and that helps define other bidding before the auction ends; although, there are plenty of times I did not place placeholder bids bc I assumed I would win some other max bid, and then I get out bid in extended time and lost chance on other cards. Also, so many times I have placed a max bid, and been bid out by one increment and wish in retrospect that that extra increment was my max bid.


So, this is where I am - I have come to believe that I only place a max bid on real big boy cards or when I need a card bad enough I don't mind overpaying. That way I know what my outside liability is and I can bid on other things accordingly.

One other point- my max bid on the 1933 Lajoie with BP was over $30k, and I was sure that was enough To get the card (like $6k more than any other 2 had sold for). In my mind, that money was spent. Then I was outbid, which made me feel like I found money.... This is dangerous. I found myself looking at a bunch of crap I would not normally consider bc I felt I had money burning my pocket. Luckily, I have not acted on that impulse, this time. But I have in the past and now I have some random cards that I just don't need/want. So that is another downside of max bid when your max is not max enough

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Leon

These are good examples of things many of us think about when bidding.

Starting to see why I can't win anything any more . . . you guys are always 2 or 3 steps ahead of me.