Dealer Pet Peeves or "Tricks"

[mintacular]

I understand life is tough for dealers these days, but in my humble opinion doesn't justify these "tricks", which are annoying, borderline dishonest.

1. Selling a lot of 1,000 cards and then you get home there are 850.

2. Well "book price" is $200 so I will sell you this vg card for $50.

3. Listing "semi-highs" as "high numbers"

4. "Does not say reprint" when selling obviously reprinted cards

[SMPEP]

How is the "book price is" a dishonest trick?

Unless you are calling the book itself dishonest, there are listed prices. Reporting what those are is a piece of legitimate interest, and valuable to folks that don't buy the book (perhaps).

Now if you want to say that book price don't reflect reality ... well, then I'll agree with you as I find that to be true in most cases.

Cheers,
Patrick

[mintacular]

Ultimately, it is up to the buyer to be informed and be able to see through the b.s. In that sense, it is not the seller's fault if the buyer is not educated. So this thread is not intended to beat up up dealers as there are many great ones out there and yes, they have to be salesman. That said, I am just highlighting or hoping to do the typical "pitfalls" that buyers experience.

[SMPEP]

#4 is my big peeve.

Total waste of my time opening up something that wasn't listed as reprint to find out it is.

Total waste of time having thousands of Mantle reprints that you can't get rid of to find the real ones.

I understand that there are some good reprints out there. I have two that I can't quite tell if they are real or not (Rose RC and 62 Mantle) because they feel a bit thin - but otherwise look right. So when selling those I get the caveat saying these might be reprints.

But in 99% of the times - the seller knows he's selling a fake and is hoping the buyer is too stupid to know it and will pay top dollar.

Those are the sellers I never buy from for any reason though. Frequently I email them and ask them to block me from their auctions (in case I forget who they are).

Cheers,
Patrick

[Exhibitman]

All but #2 are criminal acts. Open and shut fraud. #2 is an effort to market as long as the seller doesn't say the card is near mint.

[hangman62]

How about " at least 200 card in the lot ,haven't really counted ( most likely 201)

Or - Too busy to go thru lot and tell buyer card #s or how many doubles " but lot is unsearched".. most likely all low #s , lots of double's, and no stars

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

All but #2 are criminal acts. Open and shut fraud. #2 is an effort to market as long as the seller doesn't say the card is near mint.

I take issue with number 2 - as most "books" specifically state "the listed prices are for cards in ??? condition" cards in lesser condition sell for x% of the listed price. So if a dealer states the "book price" for a vg card is the price "listed in the book" - they are being highly deceptive and looking to take advantage of an inexperienced buyer (REALLY poor for long term business and building a larger hobby base imo). That said as stated - caveat emptor - if you don't know what you are buying, you shouldn't be buying it. A few local dealers at small card shows tried to pull this one on my kids - including 1 schmuck who said he "hadn't changed the prices on his g-vg 60's and 70's garbage ) in a "long time" and he really needed to put new higher prices on them. Offered my 10 yo a vg 1966 Clemente for I think $120 - yeah right!

[1963Topps Set]

How about dealers who sell "sealed" packs but know they have been resealed and only have commons.

I also hate dealers who sell a "sealed" pack for major $$$$$$ because you MAY get a Hall Of Famer or Rookie. Let the gamble be on both sides.

[nat]

I was always confused by the people who sell a reprint which is listed as a reprint, while saying "card does not say reprint on it". My best guess is that these folks are hoping to sell the card to scammers who will age it and try to re-sell it as original.

[SMPEP]

How about Christmas rackpacks?

There are a few "legit" ones out there (by "legit" I mean made in the 1960s, not the 1990s on), but by a HUGE degree these are all fakes.

And people buy them everyday.

Full disclosure I own one. But I did get it for free and have no illusions that there is anything of value in it.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

How about Christmas rackpacks?

There are a few "legit" ones out there (by "legit" I mean made in the 1960s, not the 1990s on), but by a HUGE degree these are all fakes.

And people buy them everyday.

Full disclosure I own one. But I did get it for free and have no illusions that there is anything of value in it.

Cheers,
Patrick

Are the rack packs of little or no value because the cards are fake, or are you just taking it as a given that its been combed over in advance to simply be common pretty worthless cards? Or are they common cards in lousy condition. Just wondering. If you saw a rack pack with a card of some value face showing would you buy it?

[Snapolit1]

My only pet peeve at shows is the dual listed card phenomena "$500/$125" where the dude it telling me the book value of his ungraded card is worth $500 but out of the kindness of his heart he'll sell it to me a complete stranger for $125. Hell, why not. Of course the book value is for a PSA 7 and his will probably come back a 3.

I now read back and see others covered this. . . .

[Chicosbailbonds]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Are the rack packs of little or no value because the cards are fake, or are you just taking it as a given that its been combed over in advance to simply be common pretty worthless cards? Or are they common cards in lousy condition. Just wondering. If you saw a rack pack with a card of some value face showing would you buy it?

You rarely see any of the xmas packs with anything good showing.

[steve B]

The Christmas racks are just repackaged stuff and even the older ones aren't great for condition. Usually way off center but otherwise nice. I bought one years ago just to have one, either a 58 or 59. It has a high number on the back, so it's not entirely junk. They bring some crazy prices though.

Real rack packs are entirely different.

And to get back on topic


Dealers with no prices on anything - more often than not it won't make me stop and ask, it'll make me keep walking.

The now rare overly attentive dealer. You know those guys- "Oh! an actual customer. Look at these 88 Donruss, they're about to become huge, and lemme look, I have some 87s around here too. Old cards you say? I have these 65 topps, they're near mint except for the creases and juice stains. Tobacco cards?! you mean like those redmen things? they're not in Beckett, and there aren't any nice screwdowns for them so I never bothered........"

Most of the rest has been covered already.

Steve B

[Snapolit1]

First show I went to (White Plains a few years back) some guy gave me the usual seller "let me know if you are interested in seeing anything" line and I responded with the usual potential buyer " . . . ok thanks . .. just looking for now..." Perfectly harmless pleasantries. Or so I thought. He then acted peeved and mumbled loudly "yeah, just just looking . . just looking . . . that's all I hear just looking." Idiot. Yeah, just looking, and not buying from someone who is going to mimic me. In the last year I could have bought and sold his measly table 15 times over on what I've spent on cards, but sorry for wasting your time bud.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Chicosbailbonds

You rarely see any of the xmas packs with anything good showing.

While rare, every now and then a decent card such as a WL McCormick appears on the front of one of these holiday packs....not sure which is more rare, finding a WL McCormick or finding a card with some value appearing on the front of one of these holiday packs

If some dealer did "create" this pack at some point in an attempt to "trick"/defraud a collector, due to his lack of knowledge or inattention to detail he only shortchanged himself by (mistakenly) including a $500+ card in the pack.....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

While rare, every now and then a decent card such as a WL McCormick appears on the front of one of these holiday packs....not sure which is more rare, finding a WL McCormick or finding a card with some value appearing on the front of one of these holiday packs

If some dealer did "create" this pack at some point, clearly he was not very knowledgeable and only shortchanged himself by (mistakenly) including a $500+ card in the pack.....

I would guess only a very very small percentage of collectors would know that the WL McCormisk has any value. That is one advantage of being an oddball error collector. Some very rare cards can be found in bargain bins.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I would guess only a very very small percentage of collectors would know that the WL McCormisk has any value. That is one advantage of being an oddball error collector. Some very rare cards can be found in bargain bins.

Plus a psa 2 just went for $168 bucks (yes the one in the rack could grade higher but just saying) with pwcc no less just a few weeks ago.

i assumed those packs go for more than' 168.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-M...kAAOSwo4pYlPmK

[tschock]

Originally Posted by mintacular

2. Well "book price" is $200 so I will sell you this vg card for $50.

This one is the most pervasive. However to try and be fair, I think it is more of an accepted expression, even though still inaccurate, where "book price" really means "book price in NM condition". So if that VG '50s Whitey Ford says $200 'in the book', the "book price" is closer to $50 (give or take).

Many variations on this, such as "it's a $200 card but you can have it for $50". No, it's a $50 card because of the slight crease and rough corners but I can have it at the $50 book price. Or "the card books for $200", etc etc.

At times, it really annoys me because it is not precise, but most of the times this affects me like water on a duck, especially with dealers I work with on a regular basis because we both know what we mean. But when I run into dealers that annoy me and they use this expression, I enjoy 'politely' pointing out that the book value of your '50s Ford is NOT $200 but rather $50. And if I have some off condition cards with me, I offer to sell them at a "much better than 50% off rate" from the "book price".

On another note....

One that used to happen more frequently years ago than now. The dealer would use one book (say, a recent Beckett) as a reference when 'selling' a card but another (say, and older SCD guide) when offering to buy cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by tschock

One that used to happen more frequently years ago than now. The dealer would use one book (say, a recent Beckett) as a reference when 'selling' a card but another (say, and older SCD guide) when offering to buy cards.

I remember that trick very well. High book to sell and low book to buy.

[buymycards]

You can't believe the number of times that I have asked a dealer if they have any tobacco cards or pre-WW2 cards and they say "no". Then, when I am looking at the cards in their display case I find a couple of 33 Goudeys' or T206's.

Also, it never hurts to go through the dollar boxes or $5-$10 boxes. Sometimes there are some low grade pre-war cards.

[Exhibitman]

"Are you looking for anything specific?"

"No, just looking."

"Well, let me know if you need any help."

I must hear this or some close variant on it 50x a day at the National. I've always wanted to respond with: "No, I think I will just stand there with my thumb up my butt instead, waiting for a voice inside my head to answer my question."

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I would guess only a very very small percentage of collectors would know that the WL McCormisk has any value. That is one advantage of being an oddball error collector. Some very rare cards can be found in bargain bins.

I would think a dealer would be more astute in regards to recognizing publicized variations such as this one....the earliest price guide I found this variation listed in was a 1990 Baseball Cards Magazine price guide, and it is listed in all of the Beckett guides I have since the late 90s. A PSA 6 recently sold on ebay for $549.

None of this matters if this was a legit (re)pack versus a pack put together by some manipulative dealer.

[Tom S.]

A few years ago, I was in a card shop and found several nice (NM) raw 1963 Topps BB cards that I wanted to buy.

I went up to the shop owner to pay for the cards. Instead of pulling out a Beckett mag or SCD catalog to price out the cards at NM values, he gets a SMR guide out and prices the raw cards out as if they were graded PSA 7 or PSA 8.

I ended up getting the cards anyway, but that was the first (and last) time I ever went into his establishment.

[Rookiemonster]

none of these really bother me . BUT what makes me totally lose all interest in a dealer and card anything . Is when you walk in to a show find a card, nice table or whatever catches your eye. Then the dealer acts like you just stumbled in to a card show and decided to buy cards you know nothing about.

" see this it's a 1987 Barry Bonds rookie! " he's the homerun king and you could have it for 14 bucks !

Or

" this is a 1963 topps Willie Mays I'm asking $150( it's a beater x3)

This is when I will on my do not buy list. I don't know if they are hoping for some random idiot or just testing me. But I feel offended by this. Most other things do roll of my back.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Christmas racks are just repackaged stuff and even the older ones aren't great for condition. Usually way off center but otherwise nice. I bought one years ago just to have one, either a 58 or 59. It has a high number on the back, so it's not entirely junk. They bring some crazy prices though.

Real rack packs are entirely different.

And to get back on topic


Dealers with no prices on anything - more often than not it won't make me stop and ask, it'll make me keep walking.

The now rare overly attentive dealer. You know those guys- "Oh! an actual customer. Look at these 88 Donruss, they're about to become huge, and lemme look, I have some 87s around here too. Old cards you say? I have these 65 topps, they're near mint except for the creases and juice stains. Tobacco cards?! you mean like those redmen things? they're not in Beckett, and there aren't any nice screwdowns for them so I never bothered........"

Most of the rest has been covered already.

Steve B

Those of you who've dealt with me at shows gimme some feedback. This is a fine line as I hear all the time "I hate when dealers just sit there and ignore me until I ask a question." Is there a "perfect" approach?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

"Are you looking for anything specific?"

"No, just looking."

"Well, let me know if you need any help."

I must hear this or some close variant on it 50x a day at the National. I've always wanted to respond with: "No, I think I will just stand there with my thumb up my butt instead, waiting for a voice inside my head to answer my question."

That's a little harsh - says a dealer who has definitely said this. It's just polite nothing, the little noises we make to help the world go 'round.

So my two responses in a row are on a similar issue. Let's have a look from the dealer's perspective. Do you know how many times I've asked someone if they're looking for something specific and they say "no" while standing in front of a showcase full of 60's and 70's rookies. Then they walk down my table and look into another case and say something like "Oh, you have 1948 Bowman Football? I need a ____________" There have also been times when I'm told "No, just looking" and something happens that starts a conversation and finally after we've talked he admits he's looking for VG 1953 Bowman Color commons and he has his list with him. So disingenuous noises happen on both sides of the table. I'm not a bitter person by nature, so I just chalk it up to life, the universe, and everything. But that may be the reason some dealers try harder to engage the people on the other side of the table.

[Johnny630]

I've learned two things from going to shows. Many, not all, buyers think they're going to try to be ripped off, which creates animosity and paranoia. Many dealers think buyers want to purchase their stuff for nothing badgering them with lower offers. Being knowledgeable on both sides is the key. If I don't like a price or what a person says I just smile and walk away, can't let it bother me.
The psychology of people Amazes me ! I wish more people could just have fun and stop worrying about money. Oh well it's still very fun :-) to me.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Those of you who've dealt with me at shows gimme some feedback. This is a fine line as I hear all the time "I hate when dealers just sit there and ignore me until I ask a question." Is there a "perfect" approach?

Really don't know what needs to be said other than "Let me know if I can help you, or if there is something specific you are looking for." Which is what most people say.

Sometimes I stop at table to check something interesting out -- say football cards -- knowing full well I am not buying any. Just something caught my eye. When I tell the seller I don't need help or am not interested in anything, what I'm acutually saying is "no need to waste time on me . . . I'm not buying anything."

[Snapolit1]

For those of you who think shows are nothing but guys trying to rip you off at ridiculous prices . . .well, yeah, there is some of that, but I've had the exact opposite experience. I walked into the last Philly show and found a high grade Gehrig card at a fair price. A card I had been looking for for a while. Was the first table I walked up to and hadn't been in the room 5 minutes. Made my one big purchase for the day. Particularly at the big shows, the dealers I've encountered are a lot more sophisticated and professional, and informed, than some of the guys who set up at the VFW Hall.

[jchcollins]

Doesn't happen much anymore because I've aged, but dealers that refuse to pay attention to kids and/or younger looking people. I used to go to shows back in my teens or early 20's with like $1,500 cash in my pocket that I did not plan on bringing home. Then would stand at a guy's table for 5 or 10 minutes while he refused to break-up his idle chat with the dealer next to him to see if perhaps I wanted to see something inside the showcase that I've been hovering over and breathing on. Ok, no skin off my nose. I would just move on and none of those guys ever got my business.


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[SMPEP]

Adam - as someone who has probably had that exact conversation with you at your LA show, let me state for the record ... I'd be MUCH happier with you saying that to me, than seeing you actually do that!

Cheers,
Patrick

[jchcollins]

Here is another one I had forgotten about that happened to me as a kid:

"Dealers being dishonest / not 100% accurate about the true nature of errors and variations":

When I was 12 in 1989, we went up to visit my grandmother in the Philly suburbs. While there on a trip to downtown Philly (I think, anyway...) I bought a 1958 Topps #30 Hank Aaron at a shop that the dealer swore to me was the "yellow name" variation. I took his word for it, not being privy to anything besides the "YL" abbreviation in that month's Beckett which I'm sure I probably had on me at the time. As you may be wondering if trying to guess where this story is going, the letters that the dealer insisted were the variation were of course the team letters at the bottom, just like the variation on the Clemente card in the same set. And as you also no doubt are aware now in the 21st century, the yellow team letters on a '58 Aaron are what every '58 Aaron has - the true variation is the player name above in either white or yellow letters. And the card that this gentleman sold me of course had Hank's name in plain white at the top of the card.

I learned the truth later before too much longer and was pissed for awhile, but in the end was not out much of anything - the card in question had some creasing and other issues and was probably G/VG at best, and I think I paid $50 for it. (Which yeah, I shudder to think in 1989 dollars - that was a lot for 12 year-old me...) So I probably overpaid for the card in the condition it was in at the time by $20 or so. And I got over it and still loved the card anyway and cherished it like any 12 year-old kid in the 1980's should have his only original Hank Aaron card. But I still believe in my heart of hearts today that the dealer knew exactly what the "variation" was, and was just taking me for a ride for an extra $20 or so. And that still makes me see a little bit of red now on the rare occasions that I think about it.

[irv]

I had a dealer last year tell me at the Toronto card Expo, after waiting for what seemed like a very long time, as he explained the Black Swamp find to two people, like he had found them himself, tell me he wanted $800 for a 52 Topps Joe Black that was maybe a 2-3 with black smudge/ink marks on the left lower border.

I gave him a bit of a sideways glance that clearly, imo, said get real, but he walked away like his price was firm or without telling me there is some wiggle room.

Although people can, obviously, ask what they want for a card, it was easily overpriced by $500+, and then some, so if it's actually for sale, then try to be a little more realistic about your prices.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by irv

I had a dealer last year tell me at the Toronto card Expo, after waiting for what seemed like a very long time, as he explained the Black Swamp find to two people, like he had found them himself, tell me he wanted $800 for a 52 Topps Joe Black that was maybe a 2-3 with black smudge/ink marks on the left lower border.

I gave him a bit of a sideways glance that clearly, imo, said get real, but he walked away like his price was firm or without telling me there is some wiggle room.

Although people can, obviously, ask what they want for a card, it was easily overpriced by $500+, and then some, so if it's actually for sale, then try to be a little more realistic about your prices.

Particularly when so many of us can walk 15 feet away and immediately summon VCP on our phones and check prices.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Particularly when so many of us can walk 15 feet away and immediately summon VCP on our phones and check prices.

I can understand someone not wanting to part with a particular card(s) unless the price is right, but this guy was at a show, with multiple 52 Topps cards for sale, not just one, so it didn't make any sense to me.

I assume, like we all hope, that he thought this card would only continue to go up in value, and there is nothing wrong with that, but don't bring it to a show with many others for sale, and try to get 5-10 yrs away prices for it.

[PowderedH2O]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Doesn't happen much anymore because I've aged, but dealers that refuse to pay attention to kids and/or younger looking people. I used to go to shows back in my teens or early 20's with like $1,500 cash in my pocket that I did not plan on bringing home. Then would stand at a guy's table for 5 or 10 minutes while he refused to break-up his idle chat with the dealer next to him to see if perhaps I wanted to see something inside the showcase that I've been hovering over and breathing on. Ok, no skin off my nose. I would just move on and none of those guys ever got my business.


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I had this exact experience when I was a teen. I saved money to go to a card show and when I asked to see some cards from the 1950's (this was in the early 80's), I was basically told to go pound sand.

I'll be honest. I've met very few dealers or collectors that I actually like. So, I'd just as soon do my buying from the internet and skip the live shows. I haven't entered a card shop or attended a show since maybe 2003. Of course, since there are no shops anywhere near me, so that kind of helps the situation...

[JollyElm]

How about when people post something like "F/S: 1961 Topps Mantle PSA 6 (SHOULD BE 7)"??

If you live by the all-knowing grading companies, then die by the all-knowing grading companies.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

How about when people post something like "F/S: 1961 Topps Mantle PSA 6 (SHOULD BE 7)"??

If you live by the all-knowing grading companies, then die by the all-knowing grading companies.

+1 on this - waiting for the one time when they say 1961 Topps PSA 6 (Should be a 5) My guess is that I will be waiting for a while

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

How about when people post something like "F/S: 1961 Topps Mantle PSA 6 (SHOULD BE 7)"??

If you live by the all-knowing grading companies, then die by the all-knowing grading companies.

I agree, the only thing worse is posting a for trade thread and wanting unrealistic trades.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

+1 on this - waiting for the one time when they say 1961 Topps PSA 6 (Should be a 5) My guess is that I will be waiting for a while

check my ebay listings, I usually have a handful where I say something like. "I have no idea how this card got a PSA 6." A little humor and honesty goes a long way.

[burker72]

I buy most of my cards on eBay or other online auctions. When I do get to go to a show it is a real retreat from the day-to-day, so everyone gets the benefit of the doubt. That said, when asked if I'm looking for anything I will always ask about PSA material even if it is apparent they have none. I am always interested in the dealer's response. What I've noticed is that some are completely put off. Usually, they have what would otherwise be 2s - 5s in their display case as NRMT-MT and priced according to their own grading. They say grading is BS or another excuse to justify their lack of quality material.

Organization is critical too. People that have taken at least a little time to organize material get extra attention.

And I will sound like a jerk saying it, but look like you mean it - try wearing decent ironed clothes, shower, comb your hair. Look, if I'm going to spend serious money at a show who am I going to buy from? The guy that just rolled out of bed and probably trims and alters cards? How else do you explain his so-called gem mint '71 Munsons?

I have not tried to sell at shows but overhearing what is said tells me that the excuses for low-ball prices would trump anything I've experienced as a buyer.

All of that said, I love going to shows. Love good conversations with good people. As the saying goes, a few bad apples...

[Timbegs]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Those of you who've dealt with me at shows gimme some feedback. This is a fine line as I hear all the time "I hate when dealers just sit there and ignore me until I ask a question." Is there a "perfect" approach?

No. No guaranteed perfect. But I always like an extended hand, your name, and 'How long have you been collecting cards?' I think it's a win win, as a dealer you can assess the client and it's open ended so they can inform you what they like and what they may be looking for or point you in the right direction. I also like when a dealer is really honest - if some card prices are negotiable and others aren't, say so. Clients understand the business, too. Lastly, if you're close, many guys appreciate a free, nice common from the same set - even a single cheap, low value common - as a gesture.

Hope it helps...

[granite75]

No one likes to be ignored. The big show in Wilmington, MA I can count on one hand the guys that either greeted me or made eye contact. So many of them talking amongst themselves, many complaining about this and that. All it takes is a hello and 'If I can show you anything, let me know'. Had one dealer who was fairly busy, still greeted me, got to me when he had the chance, knew his inventory, I dropped $500 of the $800 I spent that day at his table.

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[JollyElm]

People at shows have to realize there must be a gentle balance to the two sides of a dealer's table. I'm only a buyer, not a seller, but here's what I would add to the topic...

Buyers:
If I'm at a show, I love finding the dealers I can talk to about the cards I'm interested in, baseball in general, and other fun and friendly things. BUT…there comes a point where I, the buyer, has to realize that these people are here to make money. I can't hog their time and then walk away without purchasing anything, because it makes me feel like I'm ripping them off.

Conclusion: They're here to work and turn a profit. Don't waste too much of their time if you're only a tire kicker. Remember the ones who treat you right, and spend your money with them at the next show when they have something you need. And also realize that a lot of these guys are dead tired from working the room all day. It's exhausting.

Sellers:
Most buyers know what we're looking for. I mean, come on, don't use car salesman tactics on me. If I'm wearing my Mets hat and I'm glancing at your table, please stop pestering me with, "You're a Mets fan?? I got this PSA 9 Cleon Jones rookie. And take a look at this Casey Stengel card when he was the Yankees skipper. What about Tom Seaver? I have a few of his cards that are graded 7's but should be 8's!"…and on and on. And, no, I'm not making that up. There's no way in heck you're going to talk me into buying something based solely on a connection to the hat I'm wearing.

Conclusion: Always, always, always be friendly and inviting, but let people peruse your stuff at their own pace and ask questions when they're ready. If someone is lingering, trying to get your attention, let them know you'll get to them in a second. Courtesy goes a very long way and it usually pays off. If not now at this show, then in the future at some other event. I always seek out those great, gregarious sellers at the shows out here and spend money with them time and time again.