TPG's and 1962 Green Tints, A Sad Tale

[JollyElm]

Okay, the title of this thread is just a bit of hyperbole, but after seeing a mislabeled SGC card in the B/S/T area, I decided to search around ebay to see if I could spot any more errors by the TPG's on 1962 Topps 'green tint' variations. Well, it didn't take me long and I found a whole bunch of them, mainly in PSA holders. Before anyone asks, YES, the cards in these holders are the normal versions, not the green tints. No doubt about it.

Here is the card that started me thinking. It is an SGC mislabeling:
gt8.jpg

PSA seems to have a particularly hard time differentiating between the 'Babe Ruth Special' cards, which is very problematic for a pair of reasons. Number one, the error versions of these cards usually sell for a decent premium, especially #139 'Babe Hits 60,' and secondly, because most of them are as simple as pie to tell from their 'normal' counterparts. For instance, 'Babe Hits 60' features blatantly lime green colored dirt and grass and the 'Greatest Sports Hero' card shows a girl with a strikingly neon green dress/skirt, not orange.

gt3.jpg
gt4.jpg
gt5.jpg
gt6.jpg

Wally Moon, #190, is a plainly ridiculous error. His 'green tint' card is also one of the famous 'pose variations' from the set, showing the outfielder holding a bat and wearing a hat. If he's not wearing a cap, it's simply the 'normal' version, so what in heck was PSA thinking??

gt7.jpg

Frank Baumann, #161, is one of the toughest GT's to recognize, because both versions of the card have pretty decent clarity of image (unlike almost all of the other 'green tints'), so it's hard to be tough on PSA regarding this one. However, and that's a big however, they're supposed to be experts in the field, so they should be fully aware of the cropping differences in the two versions of this card.

gt1.jpg
gt2.jpg

Perhaps I should contact the grading companies and forward them the 'Official Green Tints Guide' I put together.

[ALR-bishop]

This is a good example of why I will not pay someone who knows less about my cards than I do for an opinion about my cards. I think you should offer them your guide . Someone else posted a pretty good picture comparison of both versions of all them in the other thread

[glynparson]

Is not done by the graders, most data entry at psa are not card experts.

[4reals]

Love your insight on the topic Darren, thank you!

[ALR-bishop]

Glyn---If they have one guy who looks at the card and says it is an 8 but offers no opinion on how to otherwise classify the card, and a second guy who knows nothing about cards classifying it, that makes me even happier that I never got into graded cards.

But, to me it is and always has been a hobby. If I were in cards as a business or an investor, I guess I would be stuck with them.

[brob28]

Darren, not too much to add here except that I have found quite a few miss labled by TPG's on ebay as well. Very suprising/disappointing given your work has shown that there are tell-tale signs to identify these with 100% accuracy.

[hcv123]

An opinion is only as reliable as the person giving it. Some great questions/issues raised earlier in the thread.

[Harford20]

Darren, please send that 'Official Green Tints Guide' to PSA QUICK! On Saturday, I sent a PSA graded Braves Team Green Tint in as a Mechanical Error (Flip did not state Green Tint) back to PSA to have it annotated correctly. Now I am not so sure the graders will even know that there was an error done in the first place--they may send it back as it is now.

Dave

[ALR-bishop]

Dave if you did see it there is some good info in this thread including a side by side of each cards in that series

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....reen+tint+1962

[Harford20]

Al, thanks. Darren sent me the photos with the differences marked previously. I used that to definitively identify my 1962 cards. Since I have the scan, I will try to email in to PSA. I wish I had just printed out a copy and taped it to the slab.

Dave

[ALR-bishop]

David---did you see the link in post 45 of that thread

Make that 44

[JollyElm]

The point of my guide, Al, is that it not only shows the cards side by side, but it also precisely points out the telltale differences between the two versions. That way, if you're looking at a single card you'll immediately know whether or not it is a GT.

Here's the Braves team:

Page 25.jpg

[ALR-bishop]

Both are great resources Daren. Wished I had one or both when building my set years ago

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Both are great resources Daren. Wished I had one or both when building my set years ago

Since you continue to purposefully misspell my name, which is just laughable in its own right, I guess I'll just have to start calling you 'All.'

[ALR-bishop]

Actually I am just a really bad speller, ask Bob. Sorry, no slight intended. I certainly admire the work you have done on the 62 greens.

But, feel free to call me anything you like

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Harford20

I wish I had just printed out a copy and taped it to the slab. Dave

Brilliant idea...I never would have thought of doing something like that...Hopefully your email idea will work...Good luck Dave...

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I certainly admire the work you have done on the 62 greens.

Ditto. Very impressive! I enjoy your threads Darren...

[JollyElm]

Whoops, although it is accurate, the page I posted earlier today is the older version. I meant to post this one which also includes the differences in the black oval area. It makes it easier to spot this GT if the picture is pretty small or partially obscured...

Page 25.jpg

[brewing]

Darren, do you have your green tint guide in a PDF or similar format?

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by brewing

Darren, do you have your green tint guide in a PDF or similar format?

No, I haven't converted my guide to that format, as I'm not sure if I want to disseminate it quite yet. I've just been answering people's questions when they send me scans of the cards in question.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Is not done by the graders, most data entry at psa are not card experts.

Laughing out loud.

Oh, that explains it then.

[ALR-bishop]

Doug--I sure hope this does not shake your confidence in the grading companies. They probably have a lot more competence than they are letting on

[JollyElm]

Someone asked me about the tells of the Baumann card, so here it is:

Page 27.jpg

[JollyElm]

Here's another seller who blatantly sells regular cards as 'green tints.' When you do a search of '1962 tint' under joesvintagesportscardsii, he has 69 cards listed as green tints, and 18 of them are regular cards!! A whole bunch of them are entirely made up, as they aren't even numbered between 110-196. And all of the others are clearly the regular versions.

I sent him a bunch of messages saying they were NOT green tints and, of course, he just ignored it and deliberately listed more fake GT's today. That alone tells you all you need to know about this guy.

gt2.jpg
gt1.jpg

[NateMack]

If you ever make your 62 Green Tint list available please email me a copy. I have not started the 62 set yet but I would be interested in doing both versions when I do.

Thanks
Nate Mack

[ALR-bishop]

No argument intended here as to the listings Darren references above, but I have bought cards from Joe and consider him to be an honest and reputable dealer.

[autograf]

Count me as someone who would like a copy of the guide if it becomes available--especially in PDF format. Also count me as someone who also things Joe is a good guy. The more info that comes out about these green tints, the more EVERYONE gets educated.

[JollyElm]

I think you guys are missing the point. You call him a good guy, a good seller, but he's knowingly selling cards as 'green tints' to fool bidders. As I said, I sent him many messages telling him that they weren't green tints. His response? He ignores my messages and doubles down on listing even more fraudulent GT's. Some are duplicate copies of the cards I told him about!! That is a ridiculous sc*mbag move!!

And secondly, why is he selling cards as 'green tints' if he has no clue what he's talking about in the first place? The answer is obvious. To screw people over, so he can make money. This is far from a person with integrity.

[ALR-bishop]

Can not speak for others Darren, but I did not miss your point. I simply said my transactions with them have been good . Is that ok with you ?

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Can not speak for others Darren, but I did not miss your point. I simply said my transactions with them have been good . Is that ok with you ?

Really, Al, you're going to start a pissing match with me? Fine. I guess in your world if somebody rips off everyone EXCEPT you, they are a good seller. Good to know.

[ALR-bishop]

I give up Darren, you win. Now you can go back to the 1973 threads

[Harford20]

Darren,
An update, after sending PSA the scans of the Braves Team that you sent me, PSA has corrected the mechanical error and I am now the proud owner of a PSA 8.5 Braves Team Green Tint.
Thanks for the help,
Dave

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Harford20

Darren,
An update, after sending PSA the scans of the Braves Team that you sent me, PSA has corrected the mechanical error and I am now the proud owner of a PSA 8.5 Braves Team Green Tint.
Thanks for the help,
Dave

I'll give you my address so you can send it to me as a proper thank you.

[HoofHearted]

Darren, I have a quick question for you in regards to the #190 Wally Moon no cap/batting pose variations. I have always felt that the no cap version was the green tint while the batting pose was the regular version. I based this on a comparison of the hues and textures of the uniform as being similar to the #183 Roger Craig variations. In your "Change of Pace..." thread, you also show Roger's darker hue as the green tint which I agree with.

Here are the cards in question as shown side-by-side from my Master Set Registry scans:





Here is a link to my Set Registry with scans of all the cards in the set including the green tint variations:

1962 Topps Master Set

Thanks for your effort in bringing this issue up. I haven't sent any GT cards in to get re-labeled and may not until there is a little more accuracy in the labeling!

[HoofHearted]

Nope. I just discovered something else that has made me change my mind about which Moon is the GT. Going through my Set Registry card-by-card, I noticed that the regular cards have a darker wood-grain border than the GT cards. The no-cap Moon card has the darker border so I'm going with that as the regular-issue card, too.

This seems to be true, too, looking at the cards side-by-side in the flickr account referenced in the other thread.

I'm sorry if this has been brought out before!

[JollyElm]

Hey Mike.
I understand what you're saying, but you have to consider something. The jerseys do look somewhat similar, but they are two distinctly different teams, so it's hard to make a valid comparison.

There are a couple of things to consider when regarding green tints. The main one is that the photographs are predominantly dark and murky, blurry and/or unfocused. Just not sharp. Now look at this comp I threw together with a couple of random GT's and the Moon card:

gtcomp.jpg

The bottom row shows how the capless Moon easily fits in with the non-GT cards. It's clear and sharply focused and the colors are balanced right, just like the Sullivan and Fox. Now look at the top row. All three are too dark, out of focus and the colors are plainly bad (especially the skin tones). Look at Wally's hands compared to Haywood's face. The color balance is way off base and they are very similar to each other. And again look at the focus of the top 3 cards compared to the bottom row. There's no comparison.

On a side note, there's another aspect of the GT's that's important to note. There are areas in some of the cards where the colors are just screwed up. Card #'s 116 (Herb Score) and 151 (Johnny Klippstein) instantly come to mind. They have delineated pieces of their skin blatantly colored green/yellow. Here on the top Moon card I highlighted two areas that have similar problems. Around his neck there is a gray area that is out of place. I assume it's supposed to be dark blue like his undershirt, but it's weirdly light gray. And his sleeve has the odd light blue area that seemingly should also be dark blue. Those are trademark GT giveaways.

Take it for what it's worth, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Moon with the bat is, in fact, the green tint version.

[Rich Klein]

Moon with bat is much tougher than the other Moon and is the Green Tint version.

[HoofHearted]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Hey Mike.
I understand what you're saying, but you have to consider something. The jerseys do look somewhat similar, but they are two distinctly different teams, so it's hard to make a valid comparison.

There are a couple of things to consider when regarding green tints. The main one is that the photographs are predominantly dark and murky, blurry and/or unfocused. Just not sharp. Now look at this comp I threw together with a couple of random GT's and the Moon card:

The bottom row shows how the capless Moon easily fits in with the non-GT cards. It's clear and sharply focused and the colors are balanced right, just like the Sullivan and Fox. Now look at the top row. All three are too dark, out of focus and the colors are plainly bad (especially the skin tones). Look at Wally's hands compared to Haywood's face. The color balance is way off base and they are very similar to each other. And again look at the focus of the top 3 cards compared to the bottom row. There's no comparison.

On a side note, there's another aspect of the GT's that's important to note. There are areas in some of the cards where the colors are just screwed up. Card #'s 116 (Herb Score) and 151 (Johnny Klippstein) instantly come to mind. They have delineated pieces of their skin blatantly colored green/yellow. Here on the top Moon card I highlighted two areas that have similar problems. Around his neck there is a gray area that is out of place. I assume it's supposed to be dark blue like his undershirt, but it's weirdly light gray. And his sleeve has the odd light blue area that seemingly should also be dark blue. Those are trademark GT giveaways.

Take it for what it's worth, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Moon with the bat is, in fact, the green tint version.

Thank you, Darren. I'm totally convinced you're correct. The side-by-side comparisons help immensely determining which is which. I sure enjoyed putting the entire set together. The hunt made it exciting -- especially when I realized how the cards differed via the cropping, coloring, etc.

Best of luck getting PSA to see it your way! Maybe then I'll send my cards in for re-labeling.

[HoofHearted]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Moon with bat is much tougher than the other Moon and is the Green Tint version.

Wouldn't it be great if we had production numbers on BB cards like coins have?? I got lucky and found the GT version a few months before I bought the no-cap version back in August of 2010.

[ALR-bishop]

Someone has 8 or 9 full sets up on eBay now in different conditions and a range of prices

[savedfrommyspokes]

Carson has been offering up these GT subsets for some years now and I finished up my "raw" GT run some years ago thanks to one of his lots.

I have about half the GT run graded(acquired before PSA recognized the non-pose variation GTs as GTs), but have not worked very hard on finishing the GT run graded as the prices have soared on the graded GTs in the past 4-5 years.

The GT run helps to make the 62 set one of my favorites.

http://www.psacard.com/psasetregistr...et.aspx?s=5481

[CW]

just a quick heads up to let you guys know the seller Darren pointed out was "joesvintagesportscardsii" while Joe Yanello's eBay handle is just "joesvintagesportscards", so I think we're talking about different sellers.

[robsbessette]

Does anyone know the tells of 119, 121, 136, and 138?

[swarmee]

Based on COMC images:
119: Green tint has whiter jersey and top of cap is cut off.
121: Skin tone hotter, wrinkles around eyes less visible.
136: Leather shoe only toes visible.
138: Ruth's right foot covered by "Slugger"

[ALR-bishop]

Rob--- go to post 9 in this thread. It has link to another thread in which post 44 has a full side by side run.

Darren has a great annotated side by side but not sure if or where it is posted

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CW

just a quick heads up to let you guys know the seller Darren pointed out was "joesvintagesportscardsii" while Joe Yanello's eBay handle is just "joesvintagesportscards", so I think we're talking about different sellers.

I think this is Joe's raw card ID. I believe both are Joe Yaniello. Who in my experience is as honest as the day is long. So I am not sure why he is not receptive to you Darren.

[JollyElm]

I may or may not have older versions of these posted in one of the GT threads, but here are the 4 cards asked about…

page1.jpg

[JollyElm]

page2.jpg

[JollyElm]

page3.jpg

[JollyElm]

page4.jpg