Tale of 2 1953 Topps Mantles

[ullmandds]

These ex-mt psa graded examples recently sold in 2 separate pwcc auctions.

If one of them is really worth more than double the other...shouldn't they be graded differently?

[jmb]

Without checking ebay I'd say the one on the right sold for the higher price. It's nearly perfectly centered with no chipping in the red corner. There also isn't a mark on Mick's cap.

ETA: It shouldn't matter too much but the holder on the left is also damaged. Small, but extra hassle to get corrected.

[pokerplyr80]

I just missed on the second one despite what I thought was a pretty big snipe bid. Much nicer card, dead centered, looks like a 7. I passed on the first.

[nsaddict]

The one on the left is NOT a "PWCC certified high end"

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's the era of the extreme centering premium. Whether it lasts, who knows.

[aconte]

Comparing these two cards, you can see there is no comparison. It's
not just the centering. The one on the left has weak corners and print
on the cap. The bottom corners on the left Mantle is bad. The one on the
right has a messed corner on the left but it shows with tremendous
eye appeal. Worth a premium? Maybe, but definitely nicer than the
other.

[irv]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

These ex-mt psa graded examples recently sold in 2 separate pwcc auctions.

If one of them is really worth more than double the other...shouldn't they be graded differently?

Definitely not graded by the same guy or on the same day for that matter.

Not sure which is a 6 in my inexperience, but I'd say the cards should be at least 2 grades apart, not the same.

[MetsBaseball1973]

The sales show collectors are buying the card and not the holder, as I read here many times before. Great job by collectors using their eyeballs.

Because the uglier card is more likely a 5. And the nicer one is really a 7. One is over graded and one under graded, and the market acted accordingly.

I would be proud to own the second card. It's really no comparison between the two.

[the 'stache]

And yet, if both were sent to PSA to regrade, the one on the left would be a four, and the one on the right a five. PSA's laughing all the way to the bank.

[Leon]

If anyone thinks the centering phenomenon is going away, think again. As I did some searches on the bay last night, in completed auctions, it was easy to tell the nicely centered cards. Even in the same grade there are large pricing deltas. And as a centering nut, I think there should be and am responsible for a bit of the delta myself!! As to the 1953s shown, I would have paid a lot more for the one on the right with the better centering.

[Sinker Slider]

Here's another example from the last two nights. The 6.5 from PWCC sold for 30% less than the 6 from another eBay auction. Centering is king these days.

[MCoxon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's the era of the extreme centering premium. Whether it lasts, who knows.

I just have to believe the centering phenomenon is here to stay.

Any more, under PSA or SGC holders, you can't see the wrinkles or minor corner wear nearly as well as you can see the very ugly lack of centering - thus, centering trumps corner wear - and god forbid - small creases

I know there are threads elsewhere on this, but I think the centering issue will fundamentally change go-forward grading standards, and will also dramatically drag down prices of off-centered (but not qualified) graded cards in the same way that prices of raw cards have been dragged down the past 15 years since grading became prominent.

I'd love a statistical analysis of centered 5s vs. off centered (but not qualified) 6s for high-end star cards. I'm guessing the centered 5s beat the non-centered 6s. I know I just paid way over SMR for 2 centered PSA 6 Mantles...(so maybe this post was my way of trying to justify it to myself!)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MCoxon

I just have to believe the centering phenomenon is here to stay.

Any more, under PSA or SGC holders, you can't see the wrinkles or minor corner wear nearly as well as you can see the very ugly lack of centering - thus, centering trumps corner wear - and god forbid - small creases

I know there are threads elsewhere on this, but I think the centering issue will fundamentally change go-forward grading standards, and will also dramatically drag down prices of off-centered (but not qualified) graded cards in the same way that prices of raw cards have been dragged down starting about 15 years ago once grading became prominent.

I'd love a statistical analysis of centered 5s vs. off centered (but not qualified) 6s for high-end star cards. I'm guessing the centered 5s beat the non-centered 6s

I'm not sure. Grading has been with us since 1991 and while centered cards of course always enjoyed a premium, to the best of my knowledge the mega-premiums are a very recent phenomenon. The downside of this is that it encourages power erasing, which as I understand it is not always caught.

[Rookiemonster]

There is currently a very off centered psa 4 mc 1951 mays ending tonight. I was watching to see is it sells for what a two has been selling for of late. I've seen a psa 2 selling for about 1,100 to 1,400 of late. The 4 is still a nice card color is crisp and it has nice pop to it. Let's see what's what .....

[Neal]

I would say both fall into the PSA 6 spectrum, just a guess, but the one on the right is a "better" 6 .....

Like Peter pointed out, centering is a big deal nowadays regarding price.

[bobbyw8469]

When the cards are similar is when I raise an eyebrow. When the cards are vastly different, like as in the case of the two PSA 6's Mantles, then you have to look at the condition of the cards. Not all 6's are created equal, and it is painfully obvious looking at those two examples.

[begsu1013]

.

[bnorth]

I think the mega premiums on the centered cards was a little market manipulation and will return to the normal lower premiums. One "seller" was seriously into promoting them. He bought a bunch of mid range perfectly centered cards for his personal(LOL) collection, got the hype going. Then unloaded them through PWCC and repeated while the prices went up.

[Leon]

Trust me, this is not a one or two person manipulation on centered cards. Many collectors go after them big time, just like I do...I would rather have this than a 2x+ more costly card, in a grade or two higher holder, but with poor centering. I like bigger bottoms on my '63s!!

Originally Posted by bnorth

I think the mega premiums on the centered cards was a little market manipulation and will return to the normal lower premiums. One "seller" was seriously into promoting them. He bought a bunch of mid range perfectly centered cards for his personal(LOL) collection, got the hype going. Then unloaded them through PWCC and repeated while the prices went up.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Leon

Trust me, this is not a one or two person manipulation on centered cards. Many collectors go after them big time, just like I do...I would rather have this than a 2x+ more costly card, in a grade or two higher holder, but with poor centering. I like bigger bottoms on my '63s!!

Until I joined this site, centering is something I never really concerned myself with or really considered how much of a difference it makes when it comes to grading and value.

Now, being as I have read it multiple times here how important it is, I tend to only look for well centered pieces myself.

[MetsBaseball1973]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I think the mega premiums on the centered cards was a little market manipulation and will return to the normal lower premiums. One "seller" was seriously into promoting them. He bought a bunch of mid range perfectly centered cards for his personal(LOL) collection, got the hype going. Then unloaded them through PWCC and repeated while the prices went up.

I also disagree with this sentiment, above. Anyone who shops for a centered card sees how tough and rare they are. The full grade premium plus is here to stay, just from simple supply-demand.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I think the mega premiums on the centered cards was a little market manipulation and will return to the normal lower premiums. One "seller" was seriously into promoting them. He bought a bunch of mid range perfectly centered cards for his personal(LOL) collection, got the hype going. Then unloaded them through PWCC and repeated while the prices went up.

I couldn't disagree more. Even if this one of the reasons the bigger premium for centered cards got started, they're here to stay. Collectors realize how rare a perfectly centered card is, and how much better it looks. Trying to find a centered Mantle on Ebay is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack. When they do pop up at even close to a reasonable price they're gone within minutes. Same with the big auctions, REA, Heritage, Goodwin, etc. Often there won't be a single centered Mantle in the entire auction.

Edited to add: I seem to remember the Net54 motto used to be "buy the card, not the holder." I don't get why members are surprised collectors are now doing this and paying premiums for nice cards.

[ullmandds]

all i have to say is..."namaste!"

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

all i have to say is..."namaste!"

I don't get that even after googling it

[ullmandds]

namaste is a word(that I hate btw) used by many who practice yoga as a way of describing a zen-like, centered state. Bad joke on my part i suppose!

[ullmandds]

ok scratch hat "joke" I misused namaste!

[begsu1013]

.

[ullmandds]

thanks for posting that Bob...I love that!!!!

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i immediately thought of this when ya posted that pete:

namaste

Bob, you immediately thought of "Fluffy Friends"?!?!?! Uhhhhhh

[begsu1013]

.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

what's wrong w/ fluffers?

Nothing...Lol

[ullmandds]

I'd trade one of my mantles for a live in fluffer!