Do these look a bit off?....Willards Ruth, Cobb etc...

[Leon]

Registration doesn't look too good or maybe it's my eyesight .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-Willard...item1c540ced5a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-Willard...item1c540c92e4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Berk-Ro...item1c54081344

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1931-W517-St...item1c54087f7d

.

[ullmandds]

hmmm? the cobb looks bad to me...very fuzzy...and the berk ross mantle as well...althou berk ross's can look fuzzy.

I'd stay away based on suspicion.

[4815162342]

He posted another beauty - W572 Babe Ruth:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121669230682


Notice the border is cropped out. Below is a real one (not mine):

[calvindog]

Those are all bad. The first two Cobbs for sure.

[SMPEP]

The Ruth is already at $333. What a bargain!

Leon - I can believe you outed this steal.

[rdixon1208]

Yeah they all look bad to me too.

[rdixon1208]

I sent him a message letting him know they were fakes "In case he didn't know"

Here's the reply I got:
"You are welcome to win them and get them graded you will be given a full refund if they fail however once encapsulated you will have a one million dollar lawsuit filed against you I am an 85 year old man who's son just died 30 days ago i was given some of these cards as a boy and others i bought as a young man send me a written apology or your attorneys name and # your choice You must have very deep pockets slander is very expensive my lawyer you will know very well , she's on the news weekly ."

It's almost like this guy went to school before they invented the period.

Then I got this one a few minutes later:
"How dare you insult me during my time of greatest grief my son dying at only 51 are you a monster or insane ! YOU WILL APOLOGIZE or pay dearly you scum"

[MW1]

There's very little chance with that type of grammar and syntax that those "sentences" were composed by an 85-year-old man.

[Laxcat]

His purchases on eBay are from people that sell different types of paper and other printing supplies. Ha

[rednecksims]

Report the items and use Copyright and trademark, counterfeit item, and counterfeit item. In the remarks let them know it is a replica he is representing as an original.

David

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by MW1

There's very little chance with that type of grammar and syntax that those "sentences" were composed by an 85-year-old man.

He probably means he's 85 in dog years.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

send me a written apology or your attorneys name and # your choice You must have very deep pockets slander is very expensive my lawyer you will know very well , she's on the news weekly ."

Well, don't leave us in suspense. Did you send a written apology or your attorney's number?

[Laxcat]

Straight forger or "78 cats crazy"? Not sure. What's it called? Poe's Law I think. Where the line between true believer and troll are blurred.

You guys sure the 1952 Berk Ross Mantle is fake?

[rednecksims]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

You guys sure the 1952 Berk Ross Mantle is fake?

Chances are if the rest are reprints it is too. There is always the chance he bought these as a lot and got a real one in the lot.

Originally Posted by rednecksims

Chances are if the rest are reprints it is too. There is always the chance he bought these as a lot and got a real one in the lot.

Yeah, I only ask because it actually does have the perforation notches on the left/right (when horizontal) which I think would be fairly tough to fake.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

He posted another beauty - W572 Babe Ruth:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121669230682


Notice the border is cropped out. Below is a real one (not mine):

I work in Palm Desert which is very close to Cathedral City where this card is. Definitely some questionable things occur there in Cat City so would not be suprized if this were a fake. Also, The borders are not correct for a W572 Ruth as they are too wide. You can bet that if I were to bid on this one, I would want to see it first as there are too many questions from the scans.

[kmac32]

all auctions no longer listed. Guess that proves they were fakes.

[glchen]

Are the borders for the W572 really too wide? Here's an example of an uncut strip for a W572, which seems to show those borders would be possible.

If the borders aren't definitive for determining those cards are fake, is there anything else besides the fading of the cards? If it's the fade issue, could sun damage have caused it? (No, I did not purchase these cards from this seller off ebay. )

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by glchen

Are the borders for the W572 really too wide? Here's an example of an uncut strip for a W572, which seems to show those borders would be possible.



If the borders aren't definitive for determining those cards are fake, is there anything else besides the fading of the cards? If it's the fade issue, could sun damage have caused it? (No, I did not purchase these cards from this seller off ebay. )

On the authentic Ruth there is a thin black border around the image; this is most noticeable on the bottom right corner. This didn't appear on the fake.

[Laxcat]

All taken down. I think that has more than something to do with y'all.

[tachyonbb]

I think two of them are back up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121670222273

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121670234013

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tachyonbb

I think two of them are back up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121670222273

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121670234013

Kind of hard to tell on these two. The others that were taken down were more off register....

[Laxcat]

The Berk Ross looks off to me. I had this handy this morning for comparison.

[MW1]

It appears as if the Berk Ross Mantle has been submerged in some type of caustic solvent (bleach?) in order to remove some staining from the front of the card. The result is that the image quality has been altered and the surfaces (both front and back) have degraded. I think that's what is giving the card its reprinted/unusual appearance.

[kmac32]

I actually had some correspondence with him and he says he had some kind of solvent on the W572 Ruth to remove gunk. Probably did the same to the others that would explain the washed out appearence. Cards are probably legit but altered by the solvent he used.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I actually had some correspondence with him and he says he had some kind of solvent on the W572 Ruth to remove gunk. Probably did the same to the others that would explain the washed out appearence. Cards are probably legit but altered by the solvent he used.

That would make some sense. Maybe he should have mentioned it in the listings?

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by Leon

That would make some sense. Maybe he should have mentioned it in the listings?

perhaps! but then the cards would be considered altered and bring less dollars.

[rdixon1208]

Here is a different V100 Ruth from the same seller:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-Willard...item1c542a4ea3

He's had two of these for sale this week that are pretty good fakes IMO. The image looks pretty good on this one, but the corners are too rounded and the borders are too big. I wouldn't buy anything from this guy.

[joeadcock]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I sent him a message letting him know they were fakes "In case he didn't know"

Here's the reply I got:
"You are welcome to win them and get them graded you will be given a full refund if they fail however once encapsulated you will have a one million dollar lawsuit filed against you I am an 85 year old man who's son just died 30 days ago i was given some of these cards as a boy and others i bought as a young man send me a written apology or your attorneys name and # your choice You must have very deep pockets slander is very expensive my lawyer you will know very well , she's on the news weekly ."

It's almost like this guy went to school before they invented the period.

Then I got this one a few minutes later:
"How dare you insult me during my time of greatest grief my son dying at only 51 are you a monster or insane ! YOU WILL APOLOGIZE or pay dearly you scum"

I dont understand this guy's response if he believes they are real. If he mentioned an attorney, it is juvenile at best. The obsession people have with mention of an attorney when someone gets upset is ludicrous. It undermines them in such inappropriate times, and means their word means nothing to me.

[jburl]

Originally Posted by joeadcock

I dont understand this guy's response if he believes they are real. If he mentioned an attorney, it is juvenile at best. The obsession people have with mention of an attorney when someone gets upset is ludicrous. It undermines them in such inappropriate times, and means their word means nothing to me.

+1

[MW1]

Originally Posted by joeadcock

I dont understand this guy's response if he believes they are real. If he mentioned an attorney, it is juvenile at best. The obsession people have with mention of an attorney when someone gets upset is ludicrous. It undermines them in such inappropriate times, and means their word means nothing to me.

I think most or all of the cards are real. They've just been soaked with various solvents and the scanner isn't the best. The seller has been around long enough to have been able to acquire material like that so it isn't that surprising.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

On the authentic Ruth there is a thin black border around the image; this is most noticeable on the bottom right corner. This didn't appear on the fake.

Thanks, Daryl, I never noticed that. I checked out the W572 Ruth's that I've owned, and they've all had that thin border. I looked through some of my other W572's that I've had before, and there are some cases where the border was very light.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by MW1

I think most or all of the cards are real. They've just been soaked with various solvents and the scanner isn't the best. The seller has been around long enough to have been able to acquire material like that so it isn't that surprising.

Saying that from my previous post, I think there are serious issues with the latest 1923 Willard's Ruth that rdixon posted the link to. First the borders look too wide, and also the corners look to well rounded. When I see something like that, it screams fake to me. And when one item in the lot is fake, it makes me very skeptical of the rest, especially if they are all top tier HOF'ers and no similar looking commons.

[MW1]

Gary,

I really don't think the Ruth is a reprint. There are definitely examples out there with top and bottom borders sized that way and other examples have rough cuts on the right and left edges as if they've been removed from a strip of cards. It seems to me that the card in question had some staining near the corners which was removed with a solvent, causing some damage to that area. Then, someone just trimmed the damaged areas so that the corners were rounded. It was a crude process but that's what I see when I look at it.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by MW1

Gary,

I really don't think the Ruth is a reprint. There are definitely examples out there with top and bottom borders sized that way and other examples have rough cuts on the right and left edges as if they've been removed from a strip of cards. It seems to me that the card in question had some staining near the corners which was removed with a solvent, causing some damage to that area. Then, someone just trimmed the damaged areas so that the corners were rounded. It was a crude process but that's what I see when I look at it.

I've been wrong plenty of times, so this wouldn't be a first. I'm okay with the top/bottom borders (maybe), but the left/right seem too wide to me (in addition to the rounded corners, of course). I've attached some images of non-trimmed examples that I found on the internet.

[Leon]

Even though they look a bit off I am now leaning towards them being good with issues, as Michael stated. And 3 of them are listed again....(I have seen solvent or chemicals make cards look bad previously, as many here have)

http://www.ebay.com/sch/prdaniel62/m...p2047675.l2562


.

[Econteachert205]

I have no idea if they are good or not but if I was the seller and had all this drama surrounding the cards, I would bite the bullet and get them graded. In this case it would likely assure a higher price realized even only graded as auth.

[rdixon1208]

I contacted him again about the V-100 Ruth in question (I know, it's been a slow week). Here's the response I got:

"I will be sending some things to grading soon to strengthen my case when I crush you the, Willard was sold to an expert he said it was cleaned by a solution that washes them out he was fine with it and its his business not your f****** business The Willard is no fake I made a huge find about to be newsworthy"

And then this:
"I have an old friend some one who hoarded cards as a kid as I did , he baseball and I football ,I had 7 Jimmy Brown rookies he had endless stacks of Ruths Cobbs etc ONLY because we were 90 % top five to 10 STAR player collectors I have the greatest hoard ever on the plant of early cards just given to me by him to fix up and sell , you say fake its fixed get it .anyone knows this because it would be graded and 10 X more but also FIXED by Dave at SGC was my partner who stabbed me in the back after years of restoring cards for him once he made it big he got me blackballed suing him as we speak . all of his 1930 10 and 9 are likely trimmed by him or Mervin his best friend taught him most of the other card issues too and all he grades from friends, at the 2006 LA National he asked me to work on cards for him but not as a split only buy out as the owner of SGC I will take a lie detector to prove it , ask him to HA !!!"

So yeah. With that said I'd say that they're all real

[Laxcat]

I know nothing to little about pre war. That Mantle has been giving me the willies since the get go. After reading the later posts I thought; Okay, maybe this guy had them cleaned and they are now effed.

After reading his latest reply I now have this question: if he is 85 years old and he hoarded cards as a kid, isn't Jim Brown's rookie in '58? So the earliest he could have started "hoarding as a kid" of that card he was 28?

Add the fact that the Mantle has paper over the one part where there would be some sort of reprint/facsimile notification.

Do I believe it for one second?

Delusions of Granduer? Yes

That Mantle being real? No way.

Matthew Charlton

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

I know nothing to little about pre war. That Mantle has been giving me the willies since the get go. After reading the later posts I thought; Okay, maybe this guy had them cleaned and they are now effed.

After reading his latest reply I now have this question: if he is 85 years old and he hoarded cards as a kid, isn't Jim Brown's rookie in '58? So the earliest he could have started "hoarding as a kid" of that card he was 28?

Add the fact that the Mantle has paper over the one part where there would be some sort of reprint/facsimile notification.

Do I believe it for one second?

Delusions of Granduer? Yes

That Mantle being real? No way.

Matthew Charlton

The guy has given too many stories.

[kmac32]

I now have the W572 Ruth in my possession. Met him in person and he is definitely an odd duck. After seeing the cards and hearing his story in person, I believe his cards are legit but altered. He was telling me about a soaking process that used solvents to remove debris. This would explain the fronts and his scans were not the best. Card passed the loop and black lite tests and the card stock was dead on for W572 cards. I also think the others are legit and he has more cards from the 20's that he inherited from a friend who had recently died. Have his name, email, and number and can get the address but I think the cards are legit after seeing and handeling them.

Kmac

[Leon]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I now have the W572 Ruth in my possession. Met him in person and he is definitely an odd duck. After seeing the cards and hearing his story in person, I believe his cards are legit but altered. He was telling me about a soaking process that used solvents to remove debris. This would explain the fronts and his scans were not the best. Card passed the loop and black lite tests and the card stock was dead on for W572 cards. I also think the others are legit and he has more cards from the 20's that he inherited from a friend who had recently died. Have his name, email, and number and can get the address but I think the cards are legit after seeing and handeling them.

Kmac

Thanks for the update Ken. No doubt altering cards (with what looks to be chemicals) can make them look fake. Kind of a strange auction and communications. Congrats on the Ruth...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I now have the W572 Ruth in my possession. Met him in person and he is definitely an odd duck. After seeing the cards and hearing his story in person, I believe his cards are legit but altered. He was telling me about a soaking process that used solvents to remove debris. This would explain the fronts and his scans were not the best. Card passed the loop and black lite tests and the card stock was dead on for W572 cards. I also think the others are legit and he has more cards from the 20's that he inherited from a friend who had recently died. Have his name, email, and number and can get the address but I think the cards are legit after seeing and handeling them.

Kmac

Did you get an autographed copy of VCBC 7?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I now have the W572 Ruth in my possession. Met him in person and he is definitely an odd duck. After seeing the cards and hearing his story in person, I believe his cards are legit but altered. He was telling me about a soaking process that used solvents to remove debris. This would explain the fronts and his scans were not the best. Card passed the loop and black lite tests and the card stock was dead on for W572 cards. I also think the others are legit and he has more cards from the 20's that he inherited from a friend who had recently died. Have his name, email, and number and can get the address but I think the cards are legit after seeing and handeling them.

Kmac

I guess some of us wouldn't think of altered cards as "legit"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thanks for the update Ken. No doubt altering cards (with what looks to be chemicals) can make them look fake. Kind of a strange auction and communications. Congrats on the Ruth...

Kind of a fraudulent auction if he didn't disclose the alterations, no?

[SMPEP]

Ken - Congrats on the W572 Ruth! I know you've wnated one for a while.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kind of a fraudulent auction if he didn't disclose the alterations, no?

If you know something is altered and don't disclose it, and you know you are supposed to disclose it, then I would say that could be fraudulent....but you are the lawyer.

If you didn't know to disclose it and didn't disclose it, would it be fraudulent? ...That is the question. (and I am not saying the buyer did or didn't know to disclose it)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

If you know something is altered and don't disclose it, and you know you are supposed to disclose it, then I would say that could be fraudulent....but you are the lawyer.

If you didn't know to disclose it and didn't disclose it, would it be fraudulent? ...That is the question. (and I am not saying the buyer did or didn't know to disclose it)

It's not a valid question, because in my opinion there is no way this seller doesn't understand the importance of alterations to baseball cards.

But generally, one needs to be at least reckless to have the state of mind necessary for fraud. So if I am wrong and the seller genuinely did not understand that an alteration could affect the value, then no, that would not be fraud.

[kmac32]

the price wasn't horrible as I used some reverse psychology on him and brought up the fact that the crazy prices listed on ebay were rediculous and knowing the last known sale of this card on ebay was a buy it now and that the buyer got it for less than the asking price. Had my magnifying loop and black light as I work at a veterinary clinic and we use both pieces on pets. My staff acted like it was a secret drug deal going down in exam room 2. Satisfied with the card as it looked better in person than the scans indicated and the price did not bankrupt me.

Also, this was not his first time using chemicals on cards. He admitted it when asked directly. Knowing what I was buying and factoring it into the price I paid, I am okay with it as I plan on having it in my collection for years.

Kmac