If you were to start a NEW grading service...

[ullmandds]

What would you do and how would you do it?

Most of us love to bitch and complain about the existing third party grading companies...because quite frankly they leave much to be desired.

So how about it guys...and gals...if you were to start a NEW...third party grading company...what would you do and how would you do it?

What would you change about the existing business models?

[shernan30]

Having something similar to BGS where there is a grade for corners, surfaces, centering, etc... but add an image and color category. The image would be for the Old Judge cards and the color would cover most other prewar issues like T206, most E series cards, etc...

Just my thoughts

[D.P.Johnson]

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

[barrysloate]

That's a great question Pete. First, I would do away with numerical grades, since baseball cards cannot be graded with the accuracy that the numbers suggest. I know this would not be popular with collectors, but since your question was theoretical only I will stick to it. All of the pretended accuracy of half grades, for example, is just a sham. Graders can't differentiate an 8 from a 8.5 with any sense of consistency. I would just use terms such as Poor, Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc. That would at least presume that the given card was not altered, and would tell the submitter all he needs to know about its condition.

I would also strive to be incredibly consistent and careful with grading, so that resubmissions would be almost entirely unnecessary. If a card was Very Good the first time, it would be Very Good the next ten times too. I believe the regrading game is nothing more than the TPG doing favors for certain customers, not to mention minting money. If you can't get it right the first time and every time, then find a new job.

I realize of course I would go belly up with this business model, but it is nevertheless what I would like to see.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I would allow for suggestions of grade and allow the customer to pay extra (cash preferred) than the normal grading costs.

I would guarantee a week turnaround time.

I would use a hologram or something that makes my holder unique and UV protected.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would allow for suggestions of grade and allow the customer to pay extra (cash preferred) than the normal grading costs.

I truly hope you were being facetious.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That's a great question Pete. First, I would do away with numerical grades, since baseball cards cannot be graded with the accuracy that the numbers suggest. I know this would not be popular with collectors, but since your question was theoretical only I will stick to it. All of the pretended accuracy of half grades, for example, is just a sham. Graders can't differentiate an 8 from a 8.5 with any sense of consistency. I would just use terms such as Poor, Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc. That would at least presume that the given card was not altered, and would tell the submitter all he needs to know about its condition.

I would also strive to be incredibly consistent and careful with grading, so that resubmissions would be almost entirely unnecessary. If a card was Very Good the first time, it would be Very Good the next ten times too. I believe the regrading game is nothing more than the TPG doing favors for certain customers, not to mention minting money. If you can't get it right the first time and every time, then find a new job.

I realize of course I would go belly up with this business model, but it is nevertheless what I would like to see.

I like this idea very much.


Another terrible business model would be to just have every card scrutinized to the nth degree giving it an authentic/unauthentic plus any indications of trimming etc. To me "buy the card not the holder" is the best philosophy. To let the buyer be the judge of the grade, but alas the general public (including most dealers) and their egos would not let the number thing go.

[barrysloate]

Thank you. I also agree with Daniel that the only thing collectors really need to know is has the card been altered? We can all learn how to grade our own cards with about the same accuracy as a TPG.

[BicycleSpokes]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:



1. Is it authentic?

2. Has it been altered?



I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.



I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

I really like this approach. I am surprised existing TPG companies do not offer this as an option.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[drcy]

I like D.P.Johnson's post

From a practical standpoint, you're not going to compete in the number/registry game, but doing a good job authenticating and identifying alterations would be a good service.

One problem is it would be harder for a collector himself to grade a card in a holder. Letter scans of the card though would mean the card wouldn't have to be entombed in a holder.

For the record, I'm all for collectors collecting low grade raw cards. They seem to be the closest to real collectors, as opposed to number investors and grade re-submitters. If a collector says "I don't care about number, and just want to be sure it's authentic and unaltered," he's my type of guy.

I've had some cards in such low condition that even if it turned out they were altered it wouldn't lower the value. I referred to a particularly rough small collection of Goudeys I once had as "the Devil's coasters."

I also agree with the earlier thread that there are variations in condition within the PSA/SGC Poor grade.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

I like D.P.Johnson's post

+1 - sorry for duplicating most of his concept. I just copied my post directly over to this thread without actually reading any of the posts here.

[OldEnglishD]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

+1

With these two questions answered and the card slabbed (tamper proof), I would be very happy.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

Like many others I really like this idea.

I would add that all alterations are listed on the flip and an online database with high resolution pictures front and back of each card.

[Rickyy]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

I'd be happy with this as well...

Ricky Y

[Econteachert205]

Thanks for the info bobby, cool stuff.

[jsconscum]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

+1

I don't need a monkey to tell me my card is mint.

[Theo_450]

I didn't read all of the posts.

My card grading company would have 3 categories.
1. Authentic Original
2. Authentic Altered = soaked, trimmed, erased, marked, restored, otherwise tampered with.
3. Fake

Let the buyers decide value/demand.

At the end of the day, it is what it is, and they are what they are, and the grading companies are a middleman that are capitalizing on telling us what "it" is.

I want to know that it is authentic and unaltered, or otherwise. My eyes can do the rest.

After all, it is art and nostalgia. It is kind of like buying an antique coffee table.

Refinished = < value, faked = NO value, and "came from my family" = "I bet you made that up".

edited to add: I just read a few more posts, and I feverishly stand by my concept. Don't let the grading companies dictate what you will collect, or how much you will pay for it.

[toledo_mudhen]

• Lose the Half Grades - Seriously? What a scam.....
• Simple foil seal around couple of edges to show if tampered with
• Integration with the other top 3 TPGs for an accurate population report and registry
• I measure centers with JRuler - I'm sure it wouldnt be that hard to have a computer calculate L/R and T/B - Maybe noted on back of flip
• Grades like Beckett on back for Center, surface, corners
• No membership fees for submitting
• Customer service like SGC

I'm ready - who else is in?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this...

I don't do graded but this is spot on. I find much more value in the opinion of authenticity and alterations than I do in the grade assignments. My company would have no assigned grades. I'd also make a cheaper grading option for commons, like in a top loader with a small sticker/seal over the top. The space/weight of all those bulky slabs is a real drag and one of the many reasons I only collect raw. I think current TPG's are missing out on a ton of potential money from people who want their $2-$20 cards looked at, but can't justify paying for the full monty.

[begsu1013]

I would:


1. find a good state for tax credit purposes.

a. hopefully, one w/ no state income tax.
b. a city w/ a direct fedex/ups hub.

2. establish said llc or llp.

3. find a reputable and established IT guy.

4. formulate a computerized scientific program for grading/measurements

a. a lot of cards would get kicked back for measurement discrepancies alone
b. grades would be more consistent
c. this would cut down on labor costs dramatically.

5. quality control check.

6. develop and patent a true tamper proof case.

a. maybe w. a die insert "ring" that changed colors if cracked (not spill out all over the card naturally)

7. establish a user-friendly registry

a. said registry would also track pedigree/provenance
b. notify date graded.
c. allow private messaging option of previous owners, if so wished.

8. construct an aggressive marketing campaign

a. wait for a true beauty to hand out 1st cert
b. hand out 100 free subs at national to each paid entry.
c. extend another initial free subs offer electronically for said amount of time
d. charge a minimal price (in the beginning) for crossovers.
e. kids 15 and under would get 20 free subs a year under $100 declared value.


9. continuously strive for the quickest log in and turnaround time possible

10. customer service would be bar none.

edited to add: you would also get a high resolution scan emailed to you once encapsulated.

[Al C.risafulli]

1. I'd hire great graders and pay them well.

2. I'd take image quality into consideration the way PSA considers print defects. A weak OJ image would be treated the same as a roller line print snow, and would reduce the technical grade. My company would not have qualifiers (except the one noted below), so the faded image would reduce a card's numeric grade, and a high quality image that enhanced the card's eye appeal could increase a card's grade by a half point.

3. The only qualifier I'd allow would be BD - for back damage on otherwise blank-backed cards. Its a shame to see an Old Judge that looks like a 7 get dinged down to a 2 because it has paper loss on the back, when there's nothing on the back anyway.

4. I would consider a second qualifier for postal use on postcards, for a similar reason - a postcard that's gone through the mail and looks like a 7 gets knocked down to a 1 because Christy Mathewson's sister wrote on it and mailed it home to mom seems like an awful reason to reduce a card's grade.

5. Every issue that has back or pose variations would be recognized in my population reports from Day 1. Every T207 back, every T205 back, every Old Judge pose, every Topps paper stock color.

6. I would offer grading credits for people returning my flips, in an effort to keep my pop reports as accurate as possible. It wouldn't be as rich as one free grade per returned flip, but maybe I'd offer one for every 10 or something.

7. My holders would be secure, acid-free, thin, attractive.

8. Any submission with 25% or more of the cards rejected for alteration would be rejected in its entirety, and repeat offenders would be banned from submitting.

9. I would market extensively to both the vintage hobby and the modern, both to existing customers and new.

10. In addition to grading specials I'd have incentives for frequent submitters.

-Al

[steve B]

I'd do a few things.

1)I'd reverse the turnaround time on the tiers.
2)That would allow extra scrutiny on more expensive cards.
3)Authenticity would not be pass/fail, there would be the option to decline an opinion until later or until more information was available.
4) The slab would have an enclosed slip like they do now, but would also have a compartment for a form that included detailed information. That form should answer any questions regarding why the grade might be less than the appearance would make you think.
5)Recognition for cards that are factory, but with odd cuts or that are undersize.
6) Slabs with gaskets that are both thick enough to work properly, and are available in colors. T206s look good in SGC slabs, but I don't think I'd say the same for 71 Topps or 1950 Drakes.
7) Maybe an option to include a litmus strip to monitor acidity of the environment inside the slab for sets on certain types of cardboard.

Business model stuff.
1) A registry that would include other grading companies. So you could have for instance 10 cards from steves grading, 20 from PSA, 5 from SGC and 3 from Beckett. The different companies would be weighted if it went beyond that. So maybe include GAI, but with a lower weighting.
2) A solid image database including front and back scans of all cards graded.
3) That would allow a no-slab grading option. We've never really had that, coins pretty much abandoned it, stamps has had it for over a century and while slabbing is an option it's been mostly rejected. The certificates usually have a photo attached that's essentially tied to the cert with something like a notary seal.

Umm....I guess I've thought a lot about this. If I was more organized I'd probably have the slabs prototyped already, but I know I'm not organized enough to make it work.


Steve B

[T206Collector]

I would do it like they do diamonds -- take a picture of the card, front and back, and return it with a sheet that describes the flaws of the card, from creases that are hard to see, to trimming/alterations. I was do away with the number system, and stick with the standard "Mint, NrMT, etc."

[Econteachert205]

I would hire computer programmers to create a program which would take high grade scans and assign initial numerical grades. Then I would use expert humans that have blacklights and other devices to double check the computer for errors. The cost per card would likely be quite a bit more, say between 20-50 dollars. This wouldnt be the company you send your ex 1968 ernie banks topps to. It would be geared toward high end cards and high grade cards.

[BobbyVCP]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

I would hire computer programmers to create a program which would take high grade scans and assign initial numerical grades. Then I would use expert humans that have blacklights and other devices to double check the computer for errors. The cost per card would likely be quite a bit more, say between 20-50 dollars. This wouldnt be the company you send your ex 1968 ernie banks topps to. It would be geared toward high end cards and high grade cards.

This is already in development. A machine that can precisely measure a card front and back as well as width. It will be able to analyze the cuts to see it it is factory or hand cut. It will use a new software that is currently used in the film industry that is for sequencing movie frames. It will be able to take existing graded images and compare them against each other to assign a numerical grade.

[111gecko]

"When I'm buying a card I want to know two things:

1. Is it authentic?
2. Has it been altered?

I can personally assign my own "grade" and determine the price I want to pay for the card.

I would support a company that used a simple concept like this..."

+ 1

Thats all I want to know..I can see what I am buying.

[glchen]

I'd keep the grading scale the same as PSA except I would move the 10 down to a 9.5 grade, and make the 10 grade Pristine instead of Gem Mint, which would be the 9.5 grade. The Pristine grade should have the same centering/tilt, etc, requirements on the back of the card as the front.

I'd use Beckett's holders but would improve the eye appeal some so it doesn't look so much like a brick. I like the fact that Beckett's holders cannot be compromised and there are no float or insert issues. I really like the PSA 5x7 holders, so I would use something like that. I would also have larger holders like SGC and Beckett, but I would improve both of them. (e.g., SGC's largest holder often comes apart, and Beckett is seriously too thick and looks really ugly.) I'd probably also create an even larger holder that could encapsulate larger premiums.

If the holders didn't already have this, I would add UV protection to them.

For cert verification, I would add high resolution front and back scans for the card. When you add your card to your registry, it would add this scan to it. (However, you would have the option to not show the scans or just show the front scan if you wanted.) In cert verification, I would also have comments from the grader on why that card received that grade (like you will occassionally receive when you send the card in for review.) I would debate adding one of those invisible daubs that PSA/DNA adds to auto submissions to the cards, so that if a card were re-submitted, the TPG would know that this was a re-submission and could check the previous cert #. On the flip, I would have one of those bar codes where if you scan it via your cell phone, it would automatically take you to the cert verification page for that card. Cert verification would also have date that the card was graded.

For an additional fee, I may have add data from VCP for that card or similar cards for that grade (similiar to what Heritage does on the coin side when they auction coins.)

I would use SGC's and Beckett's system of allowing cards of different sizes and grading tiers in the same return postage submission instead of PSA's more restrictive one. I would probably keep fees and turnaround times similar to PSA's. However, I'd either "guarantee" poppage on a certain date (like Beckett) or I would give greater clarity on where your submission was in the queue, so that submitters wouldn't always wonder why one submission popped so quickly and others were so slow. I would also measure turnaround time from the time the package is received and not from loggage time like PSA.

[Orioles1954]

I would love for a grading service to start grading and encapsulating wrappers.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I would love for a grading service to star grading and encapsulating wrappers.

+1

Does/Has any TPG ever graded wrappers?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

4) The slab would have an enclosed slip like they do now, but would also have a compartment for a form that included detailed information. That form should answer any questions regarding why the grade might be less than the appearance would make you think.

I like this idea, but instead of a form placed into a compartment on the slab, place a QR code on the slab (in place of the bar code) that links to a web site that details all of the characteristics of the card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I like this idea, but instead of a form placed into a compartment on the slab, place a QR code on the slab (in place of the bar code) that links to a web site that details all of the characteristics of the card.

I think QR code would make a nice addition. I'd still provide the hardcopy since the QR code is unlikely to outlive the company if the company fails for whatever reason. The hardcopy could become separated from the card, but would be more likely to survive for a long time.

I'm trying to recall the oldest Stamp certificate I've seen on an available stamp. There are certainly some out there from the 70's as I can recall seeing one with a 1979 cert. The APS issued their first in 1903, but many collectors will have them redone if they're a few decades old. New information comes out, and being thin paper the condition can change. (even before grading they would mention certain types of flaws like creases, disturbed or missing gum etc. )

Steve B

[Runscott]

I hadn't noticed we have two related threads, so just moved this from the other one.

This is such an interesting theoretical topic. I say 'theoretical', because no ideal plan can be implemented economically. Since I only collect cards that are affordable in lower grades, this is fairly easy for me to come up with a self-serving solution:

• TPA only handles pre-wwii cards - not even cross-over employees to a subsidiary that grades modern cards. All personnel are dedicated to pre-war
• No numeric grades - just 'unaltered' or 'altered'
• Code for each alteration type detected, reference number to TPA website for details
• Published estimate of time TPA spends on each card (on average) for various value levels
• Published list of techniques used, magnification levels, etc.
• Published list of all graders and description of their expertise

The biggest problem this creates for me, as a buyer, is that graded cards are no longer commodities, so it's more difficult to determine value; however, we have that same problem with almost everything else in our hobby, especially the items with only a few known examples, and we manage to deal with it just fine. We also have this 'problem' with all raw cards, and it doesn't seem to present the least bit of a problem for either buyer or seller.

This would create horrors only for 'lazy' or unknowledgeable sellers who would have a difficult time knowing what to pay for inventory, as they could no longer easily estimate profit. Tough luck - as a seller, I would enjoy such a problem. This is where it takes brains and knowing your product, and sellers of other items, and raw cards, have to do it all the time.