Players Photo ID Help Needed 1914(?) White Sox High Res Photos Added 11/29

[btcarfagno]

Hello all,

I always love the photo ID threads and the tremendous knowledge and expertise that comes from them. Therefore, of course, I need to sgtart one of my own!

This photo is purported to be of the Chicago White Sox as they return from nearly getting caught in the Kansas flood. My assumption is that this would make the year 1914, and judging by the caps on some of them that could well be accurate.

I am hoping that I can get some help in identifying as many of them as possible. I think I may have identified Shano Collins and Ray Schalk but I am terrible at this facial recognition stuff...so I defer to the experts.

Many thanks for any help.

Tom C

[bmarlowe1]

I can fix the contrast to some degree, but except for a few guys near the front, what you posted is way too blurry. The bill caps seem to be too short for White Sox 1914, but I'm not sure. You have someone who may be Collins (on right 4th from the front) and another who may be Nixie Callahan (near front on left with bow tie and bowler hat in hand), and that may be Cicotte just right of him. Can we get a better scan? What other evidence do you have?

[Webster]

Those hats do appear similar to the ones used during the 1913/1914 World tour.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...is_in_1914.jpg

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I can fix the contrast to some degree, but except for a few guys near the front, what you posted is way too blurry. The bill caps seem to be too short for White Sox 1914, but I'm not sure. You have someone who may be Collins (on right 4th from the front) and another who may be Nixie Callahan (near front on left with bow tie and bowler hat in hand), and that may be Cicotte just right of him. Can we get a better scan? What other evidence do you have?

When I get it in hand I will scan it and hopefully that will be of morre help. I thought that the gentleman seated in the first row with the suspenders might be Schalk.

Tom C

[bmarlowe1]

He's not Schalk.

[Econteachert205]

The only possibilities I saw were Fournier and Jim Scott, but I actually saw two guys who looked like each, for each, so I'm not sure at all.

[btcarfagno]

Wow I am terrible at this.

The one person I don't see is Buck Weaver. Which means he is probably front and center somewhere.

Tom C

[Econteachert205]

If buck is there he is third back on the right side of the aisle with about 1/4 of his face showing. As blurry as it is it still looks a bit buck like.

[Dto7]

Don't know if this will help..doesn't look like it will.

[Dto7]

Players and other people on train to California to train 2-20-1914 The Chicago Daily Tribune.

[Dto7]

Pants Rowland an a list of 1915 players heading for the coast on a train 2-17-1915.

[btcarfagno]

The Kansas flood of 1914 happened in early May...the first few days I believe. The White Sox were on the road in Detroit through May 1 and then travelled to St Louis for the next few days...so that would fit.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Another key figure who could possibly be in the photo somewhere is Hal Chase. Prince Hal was on the White Sox during this road trip.

Tom C

[Dto7]

A second train with Nixey Callahan and the rest of the team from the tour was to follow in 1914. If the picture is on the way out Walsh were already in California since they live there. Chase was with Nixy on tour.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Dto7

A second train with Nixey Callahan and the rest of the team from the tour was to follow in 1914. If the picture is on the way out Chase and Walsh were already in California since they live there.

Don,

The photo mentions the White Sox having just escaped the Kansas Flood. That being the case, I think that it might be a mid-season photo. The only Kansas flood of any great importance around that time happened in the first few days of May 1914. The Sox were on a road trip in St Louis at that time, so they were in the area.

Tom C

[Dto7]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Don,

The photo mentions the White Sox having just escaped the Kansas Flood. That being the case, I think that it might be a mid-season photo. The only Kansas flood of any great importance around that time happened in the first few days of May 1914. The Sox were on a road trip in St Louis at that time, so they were in the area.

Tom C

Tom, you could be right about the photo being after the season started.

Don

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Tom, you could be right about the photo being after the season started.

Don

The work up of the photo that you did is certainly more clear. Hopefully when I get it in I can make a good quality scan and post it.

The last guy seated all the way at the back on the right could be Hal Chase possibly. Face seems somewhat shaped like his. Just speculation though.

Tom C

[rhettyeakley]

Pretty blurry images of these guys to go on, as Mark said a better quality image is needed for any definitive id. The only person that bears a slight resemblance to Eddie Cicotte id the guy on the left in the middle with the bow tie, dark vest and baseball cap on.

[btcarfagno]

New High Res images below. I believe that Hal Chase is seated on the right (as you look at the photo) all the way at the back before the man who is standing at the back of the car.







Any and all help regarding the possible ID of the rest of the players would be greatly appreciated. The photo was taken in Kansas City Kansas per writing on the back, and the mention of their having escaped the great Kansas flood would put this in the first few days of May 1914.

Tom C

[Jaybird]

Kid Gleason?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Kid Gleason?

He was a coach for the 1914 White Sox.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Jimmy Callahan standing with bowtie next to man in fedora?



Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Ed Walsh possibly next to the guy I think might be Hal Chase? Right side seated second from back?

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Jack Fournier standing behind man in bowler hat?

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

The man seated (apparently) on the arm rest on the left side with the bow tie and jacket with the watch fob in his pocket looks like perhaps Tom Daly?

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

The seated man on the right side in a full tie who seems to be looking at someone on the right side of the train looks a bit like Wally Mayer.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

The gentleman seated by the window with the turtleneck looks a bit like Harry Lord.

Tom C

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Kid Gleason? (Post #20)

This is improbable--the Kid Gleason photo that you have included for comparison was taken in the 1890's when he was still in his 20's and playing for Baltimore; Gleason was 47 years old in 1914 and his hair was turning gray (he is in some team photos from around that period).

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by RUKen

This is improbable--the Kid Gleason photo that you have included for comparison was taken in the 1890's when he was still in his 20's and playing for Baltimore; Gleason was 47 years old in 1914 and his hair was turning gray (he is in some team photos from around that period).

agreed. Makes sense.

I don't see Walsh and Chase seems off and I'm not sure of the others either. Are we sure this is what it is supposed to be? Can we see a picture of the back? What makes you think this is the White Sox and not another group of men traveling on a train?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

The Kansas flood of 1914 happened in early May...the first few days I believe. The White Sox were on the road in Detroit through May 1 and then travelled to St Louis for the next few days...so that would fit.Tom C

St. Louis is on the east side of Missouri and Kansas City is on the west side, 247 miles away. Detroit is northeast of St. Louis, so there would be no need for the team to pass near Kansas City.

There is a record of the team being held up by a flood in California in February during spring training: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...arRange&page=1

[btcarfagno]

On the back is handwritten "Kansas City Kan White Sox (Chicago) BB Club American League Escaped Kansas Flood". The photo is mounted and the writing is on the back of the mount.

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

In looking at the uniform database Dressed To The Nines, the hats worn by the men on the train seem to resemble those worn by the White Sox from 1914-1916. Also, they resemble hats worn by the White Sox during their "World Tour" with the Giants in 1913. That White Sox team made a stop in Kansas City in 1913, but I have not been able to discern any type of flood from around that time. The two Kansas City floods that I see mentioned happened in 1914, one in early May and the other in September. The White Sox did also make a swing through St Louis in September of 1914 as well.

If that is indeed Ed Walsh second seated man from the back, then the September date might be more accurate, as he did not pitch for the White Sox in 1914 until June 30, although whether or not he travelled with the team up to that point I do not know.

I agree that Gleason would have looked older by 1914. I still feel that the last man seated at the back right side looks an awful lot like Hal Chase.Chase jumped to the Feds in June of 1914, so hisinclusion in the photo would make the May date more likely.

I am so confused. Bumfuzzled even. Please help me!

Tom C

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

...Also, they resemble hats worn by the White Sox during their "World Tour" with the Giants in 1913. That White Sox team made a stop in Kansas City in 1913, but I have not been able to discern any type of flood from around that time. The two Kansas City floods that I see mentioned happened in 1914, one in early May and the other in September. The White Sox did also make a swing through St Louis in September of 1914 as well.

The Sox played in Detroit on May 1st, and then in St. Louis May 2nd through May 5th, and then had a home game on May 6th. There was no time for an exhibition game in western Missouri or eastern Kansas on this trip. On the September trip, they played at home on the 13th, then in St. Louis from the 14th through the 16th, and then had another home game on the 17th. Again, there was no time for an exhibition game west of St. Louis, and there was no reason for the team to travel anywhere near Kansas City to get between St. Louis and Detroit or between St. Louis and Chicago. It just doesn't make sense that they were escaping a Kansas City flood in May or September of that year. Maybe it was the World Tour team, or maybe it was in California during spring training--sometimes the writing on the back of a photo is incorrect.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by RUKen

The Sox played in Detroit on May 1st, and then in St. Louis May 2nd through May 5th, and then had a home game on May 6th. There was no time for an exhibition game in western Missouri or eastern Kansas on this trip. On the September trip, they played at home on the 13th, then in St. Louis from the 14th through the 16th, and then had another home game on the 17th. Again, there was no time for an exhibition game west of St. Louis, and there was no reason for the team to travel anywhere near Kansas City to get between St. Louis and Detroit or between St. Louis and Chicago. It just doesn't make sense that they were escaping a Kansas City flood in May or September of that year. Maybe it was the World Tour team, or maybe it was in California--sometimes the writing on the back of a photo is incorrect.

Certainly. One thing I can say about the writing on the back is that the "White Sox (Chicago) BB Club American League" is in a darker pencil shade than is "Kansas City Kan" (which is above) and "Escaped Kansas Flood" (which is below). They appear to have possibly been done by two different people possibly as well.

In which case perhaps we can forget about my (lack of) certainty in dating the piece and its location as being somewhat suspect.
What we can see in the photo is hats that the White Sox wore from late 1913 through 1916. If (big if) the man at the back is really Hal Chase, that would date this to either the 1913 or first half of 1914 season.

Tom C

[Jaybird]

Is this Butts Wagner? If so, he played for KC in 1900. He also played for Providence in 1902.





Eli Cates?