1960 Pittsburgh Pirates Championship Team Ball Opinions

[soughtseven1035]

Hey guys,
This is my first post at the forum, but it looks like a great place to be. If I could get as many opinions on this ball as possible, it would really help me out. I want to get it graded by PSA, but $150 seems like a bit much when I'm not even 50% sure this ball is real.

It has Clemente, Vernon, and others on it. I drew a line underneath the Hal Smith with photoshop because it looked a little fishy to me. The bottom half of Hal is completely gone here and no trace it was ever there. That seems like a stamp had been placed on the ball and that part was never inked. Please let me know as many opinions on it as possible.

[Lordstan]

Unfortunately for you, your instincts are correct. It is clearly a stamped ball.

[soughtseven1035]

Right now it's a 2/2. I need to get more opinions. How sure are you and why?

[earlywynnfan]

stamped ball. Here's what to look for:

no maker stamp.
uniform pen pressure
none of the sigs touch, although they may run into the strings without any skipping (just try to do this!)

[soughtseven1035]

thanks guys, more opinions please. sorry i just want so much for this to be real. a guy who constantly sends in stuff to the PSA told me that he believes its real. why would he lie when he sells stuff like this for a living? he sends them into psa and pays big bucks for them to grade and he was very convincing in telling me because hes a huge pirates fan and this is what he told me:

"As far as I can tell it's real.
(I wouldn't have messed around for an obviously stamped one!) Generally, stamped signatures look flat.
There's no indentation, whereas a pen would leave one. More important, the ball is missing a key signature -- third baseman Don Hoak, a starter throughout the season and in all seven games of the Series.
No merchandiser would intentionally leave him off."

[MikeKam]

100% stamped, sorry.

[soughtseven1035]

i just tried going across seams with my signature and it didnt skip. i didnt even take my time. cmon guys someones gotta think its real

[parker1b2]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

stamped ball. Here's what to look for:

no maker stamp.
uniform pen pressure
none of the sigs touch, although they may run into the strings without any skipping (just try to do this!)

^^Yes this^^

Stamped souvenir ball

[MikeKam]

Originally Posted by soughtseven1035

i just tried going across seams with my signature and it didnt skip. i didnt even take my time. cmon guys someones gotta think its real

We've all been in that position where we want a forgery, reprint, or whatever to be real. It's not a hand signed ball, sorry.

[almostdone]

Another giveaway on a stamped ball is all the same shade of ink and the lines are the same thickness. Even if a team passed the ball and pen around to sign with different players would apply different pressure which would come out as thickness and shade of ink. Sorry to agree because I know had bad you want it be real but I'm going with the vote for a stamped facsimile ball. Sorry.
Drew

[soughtseven1035]

no big deal, i never get lucky enough to find something like this. i knew it was fake, i just wanted it to be real so badly. i just looked at some real signatures and yeah i can definitely tell its not real now. thanks for all the new tips though, it will help me down the road. you live you learn i guess

[soughtseven1035]

fwiw, why would this guy who sells autos and stuff lead me on and tell me he definitely thinks it is real? i mean this guy sold a real clemente signature item to another guy for over a grand already.

"Great Ball! I'm an old Pirate fan, so I think I can help out a bit.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE BALL IS ABSOLUTELY FROM 1960. THE KEY IS MICKEY VERNON WHO SIGNED TO PLAY ON SEPT 1 AND WAS RELEASED ON SEPT 30.
HE WAS A PIRATE COACH FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE SEASON. HE WAS IN A PIRATE UNI ONLY IN 1960, AND HAD NO REASON TO BE SIGNING A PIRATE BALL EXCEPT IN 1960. ENJOY!!"

I mean this guy is a huge pirates fan. the part about the missing signature is a bit wierd. Why would a 1960's championship team souvenir ball leave out a signature of a guy who was a huge part of that team for the year? it makes no sense to me?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Stamp-o-Rama......

[Duluth Eskimo]

Just because you sell something doesn't make you an honorable seller. I can't believe you keep beating a dead horse. Give it up

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by soughtseven1035

. a guy who constantly sends in stuff to the PSA told me that he believes its real. why would he lie when he sells stuff like this for a living? he sends them into psa and pays big bucks for them to grade and he was very convincing

"As far as I can tell it's real.
(I wouldn't have messed around for an obviously stamped one!) Generally, stamped signatures look flat.
There's no indentation, whereas a pen would leave one. More important, the ball is missing a key signature -- third baseman Don Hoak, a starter throughout the season and in all seven games of the Series.
No merchandiser would intentionally leave him off."

Not to sound like a jerk but if this guy constantly sends in things to be graded and pay big buck to do so why wouldn't he do it with this ball. If it was me and I was convinced I would send it, get authentication on it and sell for a huge profit.
Me thinks he isn't being as honest as you would like him to be.
Drew

[soughtseven1035]

that is true, but don't you think he would tell me opposite to get a good price on it? i believe he would do it with this ball, but he puporsely said he wouldnt mess around with something that seemed obvious to him. he seems like a huge pirates fan. maybe this is a rare souvenir ball that left out the one name and there isnt many like it. its pretty apparent to all of you and others that it is stamped, but maybe its a rare stamp.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Or, maybe not

[soughtseven1035]

lol im done. thanks for the help guys! dont want to get in a fight with duluth on my first posting on this forum. id like to stick around.

[soughtseven1035]

to clear things up, i was trying to sell this ball to someone else, this guy who gave me the information was being friendly about what he thought about it. he wasnt trying to convince me, i was trying to find out if it was real from him.

[Lordstan]

Guy.
I don't know who your friend is who send all his stuff to JSA/PSA, but if he can't tell this is a stamped ball, then it's obvious he sends stuff in because he has no idea what real signatures look like. I mean no offense, but anyone who has viewed signed balls in any even moderate quantity should be able to tell immediately that that is stamped.

Think about what Ken stated before.

1) no maker stamp.

Where can you buy a ball retail or wholesale that has no stamp of any type? Who would sell a ball without branding?

2)uniform pen pressure

All the sigs are lined up perfectly and equally dark. What are the odds that 20 guys signed a ball exactly the same way.

3)none of the sigs touch, although they may run into the strings without any skipping (just try to do this!)

Even without the string idea, how likely is it that you could get this many guys to signed a ball in perfect alignment? Each sig starts at approx the same point. Each sig has almost the exact spacing. No ink blobs or pen skips in any of the signatures.

I know you want it to be real, but sending it to one of the TPAs is a waste of your money because it is a stamped ball. Sorry.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by soughtseven1035

to clear things up, i was trying to sell this ball to someone else, this guy who gave me the information was being friendly about what he thought about it. he wasnt trying to convince me, i was trying to find out if it was real from him.

That's an important piece of the puzzle. Now it makes sense that why you so badly wanted it to be real. Just chalk it up to a lesson learned.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by soughtseven1035

to clear things up, i was trying to sell this ball to someone else, this guy who gave me the information was being friendly about what he thought about it. he wasnt trying to convince me, i was trying to find out if it was real from him.

and if you expect to receive any help from folks here in the future, it's probably best to be honest and up front with everyone from the jump.

Just some advice.

Happy Collecting...

[soughtseven1035]

I thought you guys knew that it was my ball, sorry about that. yes I have learned a lot about signatures through this ball. It has really helped me. Looking at it now, I can definitely tell it's fake. Thanks for all the good advice guys!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by soughtseven1035

lol im done. thanks for the help guys! dont want to get in a fight with duluth on my first posting on this forum. id like to stick around.

No fight with me, just trying to convince you this is obvious to most. Good luck in the future. Jason