T206 Wiltse w/cap PSA 3 Brown Lenox in REA

[bbsports]

I was wondering if any member noticed lot #369 in REA's auction of Hooks Wiltse with cap PSA 3. PSA labeled the card as a Brown Lexox. For the collectors out there that have seen or ever owned a Brown Lexox, does the back of the card look like a brown Lenox to you? Open for suggestions? Thank you.

[Sean]

I thought it looks like faded black, but I've asked a few friends and some of them think that it's brown.
So I guess this isn't very helpful.

[atx840]

I've compared it to other browns REA scanned and it's not near as distinct. However it looks brown-ish in other scans.

[edhans]

Judging from the pictures on the website, I thought it was faded black as well. It's probably one of those cards you need to observe in person. At $8.3k, I hope for the buyer's sake it's brown.

[GoldenAge50s]

Can anyone tell me what constitutes exact PROOF that a Lenox is brown or black/faded black?

What is the ultimate determing factor?

It certainly can't be that 51% say it is, so it is,--or is it?

[Runscott]

Fred, I always compare questionable 'brown' backs to brown Hindus. If they don't look the same, they are probably faded.

[GoldenAge50s]

Thanks Scott. What do the Graders use as proof? It can't be they just compare to another card & say "Good" or "No Good" do they?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Can anyone tell me what constitutes exact PROOF that a Lenox is brown or black/faded black?

What is the ultimate determing factor?

It certainly can't be that 51% say it is, so it is,--or is it?

When selling they are brown, when buying they are black.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Can anyone tell me what constitutes exact PROOF that a Lenox is brown or black/faded black?

What is the ultimate determing factor?

It certainly can't be that 51% say it is, so it is,--or is it?

It doesn't even require 51%, it only requires a TPG to say that it's brown.

[GoldenAge50s]

Thanks Sean.

So that's IT?

Until a TPG SAYS what it is, everyone else is just guessing and there is NO way that I, for example, can DEFINITELY say that I have a raw Brown Lenox, or Brown Old Mill?

To put it another way: There are Redman real cards & Redman reprints and I can tell the difference so that you would believe me if I say I have a real one---BUT--

--if I say I have a Brown Lenox, no one can believe me UNLESS it's in a reputable slab because there is no test I can do or knowledge I could have?

Just trying to get real facts & information here.

[Sean]

I have a Brown Lenox, slabbed in 2009 by PSA. They didn't separate the colors back then, but I can tell that it's Brown.
But when I sell it, I may regrade. I know how ridiculous this sounds, but buyers seem to prefer TPGs.

PS- My card is shown on the second page of the "5 favorite cards" thread. Do you think that it's Brown?

[atx840]

When it previously sold as a black example VS known brown from same AH, could be a different scanner or settings.

Sean, your Merkle is definitely brown

[GoldenAge50s]

Sure looks brown to me, but how does one prove it's not a faded black?

Which brings me back to my original question.

Is a TPG the ONLY one that can tell us it is?

--and what test do they run to verify that it is brown?

[mrvster]

All brown lenox are factory cut so far and when graded, should ALWAYS get a numerical grade.....ALL brown OM are hand cut scrap and always should get an "AUTH" designation.....I know you didn't ask about the difference between OM brown and LENOX brown, but had to throw it in....

OM brown is much closer to the HINDU shade of brown ink.....Brown LENOX is a "darker" brown, and much harder to differentiate on scans, but apparently easy in person.....but still brown can be differentiated in person(I do not own either, nor have held in my hand, just going by my conversations with collectors and my own observations)


ULTIMATE ANSWER- a BROWN lenox can REALLY not be labeled as such until a TPG acknowledges it(legitimizes it).....although you can see it is truly brown.....a lot are prob passed up....as the case with sean's merkle, it was graded before PSA differentiated it on the label.....


LESSON- if you own a brown lenox, and it's not labeled as such , GET IT LABELED AS SUCH! worth the few extra bux

[thehoodedcoder]

Black fades to grey. Brown fades to lighter brown.

Most people are capable of differentiating between the two colors, especially when you are not looking at something on a computer screen.

Hold one in your hand. Should be pretty obvious.

This card was one bid to high for me. I blinked and it was at 7k. That was my line.

Congrats to whoever got it.

Kevin

[hshrimps]

I used my brown OM and brown Lenox as reference when I purchased my other brown OMs and brown Lenoxs.

[Leon]

Brown Old Mills look brown to me. Brown Lenox looks like .....well, not like brown Old Mill. I just asked my wife about the 2 large pictures above which Chris showed....She casually said of the Brown one "doesn't look brown to me"....

I am sure they are brown, because everyone says they are, but this collector thinks it might not be a true brown.....

[brianp-beme]

Maybe we should bring the Clippers owner into this...I hear he is the ultimate judge on such matters.

Brian

[hshrimps]

"Maybe we should bring the Clippers owner into this...I hear he is the ultimate judge on such matters."



We don't need Clippers owner, this group can be the judge too... remember that Cobb T206 Wagner?? U know what I am saying?????

[GoldenAge50s]

Thanks to all who replied to my questions--I appreciate your efforts to enlighten me.