1964 topps tatoos shill bidding galore bassik and morris

sflayank · #1 03-21-2014, 08:02 PM

r u guys kidding me?
heres one example
1964 Topps Tattoos Set Break BLUE Curt Flood 3.18.14
same winner...on all the stupid prices with the same underbidder
they jacked this guy big time
these werent even full size tattoos curt flood in this condition would normally sell for $5
sflayank
larry s

hangman62 · #2 03-21-2014, 08:28 PM

Larry,
and your 100% sure of this..and can prove it to the Ebay president and CEO

vintage954 · #3 03-22-2014, 06:09 AM

I had that same feeling a few weeks ago and posted here to see what people thought and almost got the lynch mob

bnorth · #4 03-22-2014, 06:43 AM

Don't know about shilling, but I pulled up a few completed auctions and the guy must have a cult like following. There are several bidders with over 90% bid activity and a few with 100%.

nolemmings · #5 03-22-2014, 10:00 AM

The Flood had 5 different bidders over $75, and the top three bidders all sniped in the final eight seconds of the auction as their only bids. The under-bidder has 9% bid activity with this seller and no bid retractions in the last 6 months. That is far from classic shill bidding. It seems quite a few people valued that card at much higher than $5.

Sean1125 · #6 03-22-2014, 10:03 AM

ALR-bishop · #7 03-22-2014, 11:16 AM

I have a set of these. Maybe I should add them to my insurance rider

I ask this all the time, why did Topps call them Tattoos in 60 and Tatoos in 64 ?

MattyC · #8 03-22-2014, 03:51 PM

Heavy accusations without very strong proof.

In general, I wonder if there is a natural psychological reflex in some to see and cry shilling, so as to offset a loss at auction?

pawpawdiv9 · #9 03-22-2014, 03:56 PM

LOL! maybe thats why my Mantle auto-ball is not selling-- I am not asking not enough.
Those are some really strong prices and nothing wrong with it. I only happen to speak to Sean a few times thru a PM, He seems legit for me to do bussiness with. 2 thumbs up are someone trying to run a bussiness in this decade.

sflayank · #10 03-22-2014, 04:14 PM

i did not bid on it and couldnt care less
simply showing the board that insanely ridiculous prices were paid and the 3 top bidders were all the same guys who virtually only bid on your stuff
check out the red sox logo tatoo...1/2 a tatoo should i say
172$....a joke...ive listed tatoos in that shape starting at 99 cents and didnt get a bid...$400 for killebrew? ive never seen an ungraded tatoo of mantle sell for 400...let alone killebrew

Sean1125 · #11 03-22-2014, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sflayank

i did not bid on it and couldnt care less
simply showing the board that insanely ridiculous prices were paid and the 3 top bidders were all the same guys who virtually only bid on your stuff
check out the red sox logo tatoo...1/2 a tatoo should i say
172$....a joke...ive listed tatoos in that shape starting at 99 cents and didnt get a bid...$400 for killebrew? ive never seen an ungraded tatoo of mantle sell for 400...let alone killebrew

I know the prices were strong. All the auctions were legit.

bobsbbcards · #12 03-22-2014, 04:50 PM

Not questioning the legitimacy of the auctions one bit, but I'm truly baffled why people would pay some of these prices for raw cards that have absolutely no chance to grade higher than advertised if sent in for grading.

Take the 1956 Topps Clemente EX-MT card that was shown as selling for $390. Here's a scan:

Average VCP for a PSA 7 is $386.93. One sold on March 19th for $354. One sold on March 1st for $382.59.

Clearly the raw card shown is NOT a PSA 7 (6 at best, and that's debatable), yet it sells for more than one?!? Huh?

Sean1125 · #13 03-22-2014, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsbbcards

Not questioning the legitimacy of the auctions one bit, but I'm truly baffled why people would pay some of these prices for raw cards that have absolutely no chance to grade higher than advertised if sent in for grading.

Take the 1956 Topps Clemente EX-MT card that was shown as selling for $390. Here's a scan:

Average VCP for a PSA 7 is $386.93. One sold on March 19th for $354. One sold on March 1st for $382.59.

Clearly the raw card shown is NOT a PSA 7 (6 at best, and that's debatable), yet it sells for more than one?!? Huh?

I would agree with an earlier statement that someone made saying Greg has a cult following.

MattyC · #14 03-22-2014, 05:05 PM

Here's what some people don't get, and I will use myself as an example to illustrate the point:

I collect something other than cards. It's not my main focus but every several months I will look to splurge on some of these items. They are readily available on ebay, often for much cheaper than I wind up spending on them. But I am not super knowledgable on the market nuances for these items; I am not sure who the legit sellers are, and who is selling knockoffs, or how prevalent knockoffs are, though I suspect quite prevalent.

So what I do, is instead of bargain hunting on ebay through various sellers of unknown reputation, I willingly and happily pay top dollar and then some to get what I want, in one shot, from one guy whom I know is 100% legit, selling legit stuff.

And if he were to run auctions, I would only buy these items from him, and slug it out with other bidders, including those like myself-- who are loyal to this guy. I know I may in some cases be paying way over what I could find these items for elsewhere, but I am too busy to learn the seller landscape and am happy to pay a fat premium for what I want and the confidence in what I am getting, when I buy from this one point of sale.

Now if this is how one guy thinks with respect to one seller of a collectible, there are doubtless legions of others with the same mindset. And though I know how to parse a good card from a bad one no matter who the seller, there are likely many guys who think about cards the way I do about this other collectible.

This explains why some guys who have built a business, a reputation, and a following on a mass scale (the Probsteins, the PWCCs, the Morris, the Novellas, etc.) seem to get bidding and action that others don't. Many people are busy with work or other things and just want what they want, and are happy to "overpay" for confidence in seller and the items' legitimacy. Other sellers who do not get the same action should look to market themselves accordingly, so that they can enjoy the same benefits of a loyal following.

Rich Klein · #15 03-22-2014, 06:07 PM

Switching to a different board and a different seller:

A PSA board "insider" posted a thread thanking Probstein for getting him a very strong price on a 1973 Clemente in PSA 9; yet no one accused the bidding on that song of being shilled yet a weekly thread seems to be created about probstein shills. C'mon now, no one thought of that with that posting.

I think Matty said it well, when people have faith and confidence in an auction house sometimes fluky things happen.

Perhaps Larry you would like to try the services of Bassik and Morris

Rich

sflayank · #16 03-22-2014, 06:28 PM

thats ok...probstein pwcc gregmorris bassik hyee heritage etc etc
if it looks like a duck its a duck

ALR-bishop · #17 03-22-2014, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I would agree with an earlier statement that someone made saying Greg has a cult following.

If so, Sean, I hope it's not like that one on The Following

nolemmings · #18 03-22-2014, 11:52 PM

It appears to me that you don't know what a duck looks like. There were four tatoos that went for high prices. The guy who won the Killebrew didn't even bid on the other three--at all--so your statement that the 3 top bidders on these high-priced tats were all the same guys is false. As for the other three tats, they were the subject of high snipes placed by two guys, one of whom has a bid history of 9% with this seller-- hardly a guy who makes "virtually all" of his bids with him, so you're wrong again. He won one of the three. The other guy has a high bidding history of 73% with this seller, but he's only bid on 26 items total this past month. Four are on these tatoos and I would bet if you search the history on all the other tats he bid on several of them as well, because, geez I don't know, maybe he collects them and there was a set break?

The most important point is that the bidding by these guys were all snipes placed in the final few seconds of the auction. They did not bid before then. The whole purpose of shilling is to artificially pump up the price in hopes that some mark will keep bidding it up further. You can't do that very well now can you if you are bidding with 4-8 seconds to go--you give the sucker almost no time to see your bid and raise it. What, you hope that some guy who has not even shown up will bid in the few seconds remaining and that he will just happen to outbid you, or else you get stuck with an item you don't really want? Really? And the tatoos, which are mainly selling in the single digits but with some nicer looking commons hitting $50, are gonna motivate some shiller to throw out a $189 snipe for Norm Siebern because he's confident some sucker is going to outbid him in the last couple of seconds? Sure, that's what happened.

MattyC · #19 03-22-2014, 11:55 PM

Todd wins the internets today.

Rich Klein · #20 03-23-2014, 05:18 AM

Larry, how many of the Flood Tattoos in question do you have to sell at $5?

sflayank · #21 03-23-2014, 05:54 AM

lets see should i pay greg morris 25 for a dave nicholson thats cut in half or buy a full length nrmt one from columbia city( the most expensive dealer in town for $25)
or a frank howard for 40 or $25or 1/2 a norm cash for 31 or a full length one for 25
or a red sox logo in 1/2 for a 172....would u like to buy a full length one from me for 100 maybe u could sell it to the underbidder for 300
if u knew how to contact the underbidders like i do u would realize they will not buy anything from u for even half their top bids
all fakes

sflayank · #22 03-23-2014, 06:21 AM

he got 3500 for a set where 52 out of the 87 are cut in half
congratulations

the 'stache · #23 03-23-2014, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattyC

Todd wins the internets today.

That's interwebs, Matt. Sheesh, get it right.

Sean1125 · #24 03-23-2014, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sflayank

he got 3500 for a set where 52 out of the 87 are cut in half
congratulations

Hi Larry, I'd like to leave you with this thought.

My marketing is effective

bobsbbcards · #25 03-23-2014, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Hi Larry, I'd like to leave you with this thought.

My marketing is effective

Not trying to quibble (much), but an effective marketer might mention the more prominent players in these two auctions (although to be fair, Sutton was mentioned in the 2nd one): B.ob F.isk

1969 Topps 4 in 1 Adair/Wilson PSA 6 EX-MINT

1969 Topps 4 in 1 Stange/Sutton PSA 8 NM-MT

sflayank · #26 03-23-2014, 09:12 AM

thanks bob
never know who's looking for a lee stange or jerry adair
as opposed to a mays or a rose
thats really good marketing sean

Sean1125 · #27 03-23-2014, 09:12 AM

Never mind

Can't respond to people who completely change their ridiculous point only trying to find things wrong.

Our prices speak for themselves, we do not and will never shill. Good luck in your bidding and buying Gentlemen.

sflayank · #28 03-28-2014, 03:05 PM

proof? that u shill? explain this guy
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=131151485044
the winning bidder has made 3700 bids this month 3500 with you and retracted 180 bids
a crook is a crook is a crook

vintagetoppsguy · #29 03-28-2014, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sflayank

proof? that u shill? explain this guy
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=131151485044
the winning bidder has made 3700 bids this month 3500 with you and retracted 180 bids
a crook is a crook is a crook

Larry,

That's still a live auction - no winning bidder (yet).

*******************************************

Sean,

Larry does however make a very valid point on this one. Bidder r***m has bid 25 times in this one auction and has 179 bid retractions in the last 6 months. You've always been very honest and I take you at your word on the shilling, however this is the type of bidder you might want to block because it he does look bad.

Regards,

sflayank · #30 03-28-2014, 04:41 PM

thanks to a fellow board members information
gregmorriscards and a stable of shill bidders on ebay are going to be suspended
in the very near future
you can look at 100s of his items....there are a dozen or more shills
he basically has a network

ajg · #31 03-28-2014, 06:27 PM

Larry. Keep up the good fight. We all owe people like you a debt of gratitude.

vintage954 · #32 03-28-2014, 07:22 PM

If this is so, I am extremely disappointed. I have bought from Greg for years and always thought he was a standup guy.

sflayank · #33 03-28-2014, 08:24 PM

have no fears...im sure he'll have other ebay names that he'll sell under

gregmorris818 · #34 03-28-2014, 08:51 PM

I am very disappointed and upset to read the comments this evening suggesting that I am engaging in shill bidding. This is absolutely false. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue with anyone who would like to contact me directly. I can be reached at 818.517.1612 or gregmorris818@gmail.com. I have detailed back-up information that I can provide upon request demonstrating that the individual in question is not a shill bidder. It seems inappropriate to post information about a specific individual in this public forum, which is why I request that interested individuals contact me directly so we can speak.

bnorth · #35 03-29-2014, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregmorris818

I am very disappointed and upset to read the comments this evening suggesting that I am engaging in shill bidding. This is absolutely false. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue with anyone who would like to contact me directly. I can be reached at 818.517.1612 or gregmorris818@gmail.com. I have detailed back-up information that I can provide upon request demonstrating that the individual in question is not a shill bidder. It seems inappropriate to post information about a specific individual in this public forum, which is why I request that interested individuals contact me directly so we can speak.

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 3727
Items bid on: 719
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 95% Help
Bid retractions: 25
Bid retractions (6 months): 184
I see the bidder has retracted the bid from the auction in question. I for one would love to hear an explanation for the above bidding pattern if it is not a shill account. Let me also add at this point I am not calling you a shiller. The problem I see is when I pull up your completed auctions and go through bid histories there are several accounts with the same type of bid history as the one shown.
I also understand from PM's from other members this is a new thing in your auctions. If you do not want to answer were everyone can see your explanation please PM me.

brewing · #36 03-29-2014, 07:32 AM

I have seen Greg Morris cards consistenly get the highest prices, for no apparent reason. While I have made about 10 purchases over the past few years. Suspicion of shilling has made me either ignore his auctions or bail out quickly the past year.
Brent I ngr@m

vintage954 · #37 03-29-2014, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregmorris818

I am very disappointed and upset to read the comments this evening suggesting that I am engaging in shill bidding. This is absolutely false. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue with anyone who would like to contact me directly. I can be reached at 818.517.1612 or gregmorris818@gmail.com. I have detailed back-up information that I can provide upon request demonstrating that the individual in question is not a shill bidder. It seems inappropriate to post information about a specific individual in this public forum, which is why I request that interested individuals contact me directly so we can speak.

As a consistent buyer in your auctions, I think that you should post any information HERE. I purchase the majority of my set building from you and I think that the least you can do is post the info on here and not over the phone. Honestly, I hope its not true but time will tell.
I will say that your auctions are accurate, you ship your cards well, and you ship fast. Big bonus

Republicaninmass · #38 03-29-2014, 07:56 AM

I would agree with an earlier statement that someone made saying Greg has a cult following.

Especially from his consignors

ALR-bishop · #39 03-29-2014, 08:26 AM

I have never sold anything on ebay, but I have been an active buyer for some time. Over that time I have seen ebay go from a venue that heavily favored sellers to one that completely favors buyers. And I have come to see there are a lot of nutty buyers out there

If you are a big volume seller, I can believe that you might have some fanatically loyal customers. What do you do if you have a guy who regularly buys a lot of stuff from you and bids in a bunch of auction he does not win, and even retracts a lot of bids in those auctions ...and the guy is not a consignor. I guess you could block him since he might be making you look bad, but if he in fact has bought a bunch of stuff from you on an ongoing basis he could then drop a bunch of negatives on you in retaliation, and you lose his ongoing business

I do not know what the actual facts are here, but a lot of folks seem happy with this seller, and it seems like several big volume sellers have generated similar scrutiny on this board and others over time.

Makes me glad I do not sell on ebay . It would likely drive me to homicide

gregmorris818 · #40 03-29-2014, 09:48 AM

The bidder has been blocked. Here are his responses to me.

nolemmings · #41 03-29-2014, 11:55 AM

Quote:

If you are a big volume seller, I can believe that you might have some fanatically loyal customers. What do you do if you have a guy who regularly buys a lot of stuff from you and bids in a bunch of auction he does not win, and even retracts a lot of bids in those auctions ...and the guy is not a consignor. I guess you could block him since he might be making you look bad, but if he in fact has bought a bunch of stuff from you on an ongoing basis he could then drop a bunch of negatives on you in retaliation, and you lose his ongoing business

You are exactly right Al, and once again Larry has shown that he does not know much if anything about shilling. It would be nice to examine the so-called shiller's bid on that item Larry linked, but he has retracted everything, no doubt out of anger, since his bids topped out at $48 (I was watching) and the auction is at $312 with four days to go. Looks like now he'll even have more retractions.

So let's see. The top bidder in Larry's "smoking gun" auction has bid 1% with gregmorris cards, the under-bidder has bid 2% with him, and the third-place bidder has 0% bids with the seller--yes that's right, so few of his total bids that it registers as zero. These three are at present slugging it out with several days to go. Which one or more of these is in the "network" of shillers that seller uses to jack up his prices? Seriously. Oh but wait, some nutty bidder put in twenty something bids on the second day of the auction that topped out at $48.00, then stopped bidding altogether. That's your shiller? That's artificially jacking the price up how? When several others have bid 4, 5, 7X that amount and there are still days left on the auction?

Now if this guy bid $325 and then retracted it just so he could see where the top bid was and then re-bid just under that to max out the "honest" bidder, you might have something. But there's no evidence that this is what happened here or anywhere that I've been shown. In fact, that is the type of thing that could and likely would be called to the seller's attention by those at the top, at which point seller could block that bidder. But for mickey-mouse bidding that tops out at 15 or 20% of the final hammer price, it's doubtful that retractions in that range are noticed by or matter to most people, other than those who apparently feel it their duty to bitch and call people crooks without any substantial proof.

BTW, I just saw where the lowest bidder in Larry's "smoking gun" auction bid 9 times in about 11 seconds, topping out at $5.54. He has tons of retractions. Is he another shill? I mean running the price up to five and half bucks on an item that will sell for a few hundred dollars is dastardly and must be the work of some gregmorris henchman, right?

vintagetoppsguy · #42 03-29-2014, 12:12 PM

I do not believe any shill bidding was going on. That said, I still think Greg made the right decision to block the bidder. His bidding behavior (25 times in one auction) along with his 179 bid retractions just doesn't look good, good customer or not. It was the right thing to do.

It's kind of like if you owned a brick and mortar store and you had one customer (even a good customer) that always had really bad body odor and the other customers complained because of the smell. Do you get rid of the "problem" customer to appease the other customers even though the "problem" customer really hasn't done anything wrong? I would. It may be a silly example, but my point is sometimes you have to get rid of one customer to keep the rest of your customers happy.

Greg made the right decision in getting rid of a "problem" customer even if he really wasn't doing anything technically wrong, so as to not make the situation look bad to his other customers. Right move IMO.

4reals · #43 03-30-2014, 09:24 AM

I'm observing this thread with great interest because I too have purchased many items over the years from gregmorris on the bay. Obviously, I would hate to learn I got shilled but I've always felt I had a pretty good radar when something fishy was going on and never felt anything I bid on was funky. Greg has always been great to deal with, his cards are always as described and he ships quickly. I always attributed the interest he drew in his cards to the extra time he spends on email marketing.

As a bidder (and winner) of a couple of the cut 64 tattoos I can speak directly on that topic. I purchased the Perranoski for $7.50 and the Dodgers logo for $8.50. I would put both prices in that $5 range that Larry mentioned and would have gladly paid three times that for each considering the only other examples I've seen on ebay in the past 6-7 years were graded and in the $100-$300 range. There's no way I'm spending that on a subset issue, test or otherwise, just to say I own one. I'm very happy owning a cut copy for much less.

D. Bergin · #44 03-30-2014, 12:21 PM

Bidders are retracting bids as a regular strategy now, because Ebay allows them to. Has nothing to do with shilling for the most part.

All you can do is either block them or warn them when they start messing with YOUR auctions..............but if you started blocking everybody who has a ton of retractions with other sellers nowadays, you'd be left with very few bidders.

Ebay could solve this very easily by warning or suspending bidders with multiple retractions, but they don't seem to have any interest in doing this.

D. Bergin · #45 03-30-2014, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sflayank

if u knew how to contact the underbidders like i do u would realize they will not buy anything from u for even half their top bids
all fakes

So you contact other sellers underbidders on Ebay, and offer to sell them stuff off-ebay, and you wonder why they don't pull the trigger?

sflayank · #46 03-30-2014, 03:04 PM

wrong
i contact the underbidders on BS auctions to see if they are real

4reals · #47 03-30-2014, 06:33 PM

How are you able to do this when ebay disguises the bidders user name?

I've often wanted to contact the winner of a lot to see if they'd sell me one of the cards in the lot. How do you do it?

hangman62 · #48 03-30-2014, 07:02 PM

NO NO..Larry knows how to do that..Ive seen it before

I Only Smoke 4 the Cards · #49 03-30-2014, 09:13 PM

I didn't know it was so easy to retract a bid I think I have done it once because I entered the wrong dollar amount. It was years ago but I thought I had to give an explanation.

glynparson · #50 03-31-2014, 03:18 AM

but if you contacted me to sell me something off eBay based on my eBay bids and I did not know you, i would tell you to go pound sand but not in such a nice way.

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