What is scrap and what isn't?

[Leon]

I was reading a thread just now on the BST (you know something is up when you see lots of replies) and a discussion concerning what "scrap" is? What do you define as scrap? What isn't scrap? Have we gotten too carried away with this stuff?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

When I think of scrap I think of blank back with no name t206.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[packs]

I consider a scrap to be an unfinished card. So if you have a card that is completely printed but may be miscut, that is not a scrap. There should always be something unfinished about a scrap. If there are color shifts or overprinting of colors on an otherwise completely finished card, that card is not a scrap. It is simply mis-printed. At least in my opinion.

[frankbmd]

Scrap (on the market today) is the result of nefarious underpaid janitors who were trying to cash in on the side. Unfortunately none of them lived long enough.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Scrap (on the market today) is the result of nefarious underpaid janitors who were trying to cash in on the side. Unfortunately none of them lived long enough.

The janitors and other employees might have back doored a small percentage. My uncle worked for one of the big guys for several years and the company would actually sell the scrap and print errors directly to error/variation dealers. They also sold huge lots of star players directly to dealers.

[Leon]

To me, this McGraw is scrap (Crandall shown for example purposes), but some other things people say are scrap, aren't. Maybe we are getting a bit too lenient with the term?

[atx840]

Originally Posted by packs

I consider a scrap to be an unfinished card. So if you have a card that is completely printed but may be miscut, that is not a scrap. There should always be something unfinished about a scrap.

Yep, as well as being handcut. Some upside down backs & all brown OMs are finished and are scrap.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by atx840

Yep, as well as being handcut. Some upside down backs & all brown OMs are finished and are scrap.

For sake of debate, why are Brown Old Mills considered scrap? Is the fact they are hand cut, but don't have other issues, still make them scrap?

[dog*dirt]

Originally Posted by packs

I consider a scrap to be an unfinished card. So if you have a card that is completely printed but may be miscut, that is not a scrap. There should always be something unfinished about a scrap. If there are color shifts or overprinting of colors on an otherwise completely finished card, that card is not a scrap. It is simply mis-printed. At least in my opinion.

I think the definition of scrap as an unfinished card is accurate as it was intended to be discarded and not to be put in circulation. Cards that have certain "printing errors" such as missing color, miscut or multiple strikes, that made it into circulation are just that as in they are errors and not scrap imo.

[JerryTotino]

Leon,

I would classify Brown Old Mills as scrap for several reasons. All confirmed examples are hand cut and they are not the normal color for this type of back. Thus, this back with Brown ink seems to have been a mistake or experiment. If there were actually intentions to distribute the Brown Old Mill I'm sure we would have run into a factory cut example by now and we would have also found them in greater numbers.

In addition, the fact that several of these come with the Factory 649 overprint it suggests that the printer knew they were scrap and ran at least several of these sheets through the printing process adding/testing the factory overprint process.

This also suggests that at least 2 full sheets of these backs may have been destroyed because there is only one known example with a single factory overprint and a second example with two factory overprints.

Jerry

[ALR-bishop]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....ighlight=scrap

[thehoodedcoder]

Stuff that Johnny V collects for a thousand Alex.

[mrvster]

You guys rock.....Erick, and Steve......this Ewing is A PERFECT example of a "TWEENER"....Scrap....

The Ewing, is scrap, but hard to prove......Steve knows it is scrap.....I know it's scrap.......HOUND DAWG, you have the eye on everything, but Ewing is a tough call.....I call on Erick for opinions all the time on objective scrap views, Erick's eye is like an eagle, He knows his Shit, but Ewing is a tuf call, because of the not so obvious scrap signs, putting it in the "tweener" category....but I know it's scrap due to the circumstantial evidence....Steve had a good call on Ewing...


going to break it down in tweener terms.....maybe Chris B can elaborate also...

Tweeners are the "grey " area of scrap......there are some beauties in the Piedy 150 run, due to the poor quality control in the early printing....just common sense....the lithography of these beauties were still in a "kinda of an experimental stage," first runs(some of the best scrap came out of the Piedy 150 runs)


Id love to see Ewing in person.....these "NON ISSUED" scraps are in a subset of their own... these "tweeners" will jump right out at me....

EWING CLUES:

1) top border peak above the "150" to the bottom highest point= (STEVE PLEASE measure), to the bottom "dip" is obvious scrap characteristics..........first big clue....this looks from the scan to be greater than 1/16th of an inch taller than the 2 5/8"...granted, there are OVERSIZED T206 top to bottom that exist out there, but the probability learns toward scrap with this card...


2) obvious miscut/misaligned / cut job, due to the super wide left front border(right reverse)..the back is another dead give away/ .....



THE SIZE, and obvious BACK miscut lead this to be a "TWEENER".....hard to "chop"
up a standard size 206 to reflect those characteristics and dimensions on the card.....


need a measurement! top highest point to the bottom dip....

coupled with the early 150 print run.....HIGH PROBABILTY OF SCRAP....90 % or greater inmho.....id love to hold this card., that's when one can really tell..


The bad hack job on the right side, still may have been done after the original card was cut off the scrap sheet......that could've been the annoying little sister with scissors

If this had a bad registration/ghost image/ color shift/ missing color/ double exposure/ missing ink/ ect, ect....any 1 more "clue" to scrap, it would be a 100% scrap then...


iv been searching for these for many years, and after a while, you can pick 'em right out of a line up.....but some are "not so obvious", as in the case with this particular card of Ewing....

starring at it many times when Steve had posted it, leads me to believe it's a tweener scrap, but I need that measurement

[steve B]

Originally Posted by mrvster

starring at it many times when Steve had posted it, leads me to believe it's a tweener scrap, but I need that measurement

Peak to peak is 2 21/32, side to side is just barely under 1 1/2. So just barely over the nominal size both ways. But so close I wouldn't consider it oversized. The back is lined up fairly well with the front.

So yes, it very well could be a hack job by a kid somewhere along the line.

Steve B

[MuddyMules]

www.printingtips.com/glossary.asp

This site sums it up. Maybe the rules should be followed from actual printers that have already done the research, instead of coming up with a debate on what it should or should not be. If the card grading companies would follow the same standards that have been written longer than these companies have been in business, there would not be such a difference between them all. Since they are in business to make money, each grader will always make an attempt to change the rules into their own to be competitive.

Flop
Reversing a negative or transparency so that the image that was on the left side is now on the right.

Makeready
1.The process of setting up and adjusting a printing press for a particular ink, paper and specifications prior to printing. This includes adjusting the infeed, grippers and guides, adjusting ink for proper coverage, registering copy, and matching the printed piece with the proof to be sure everything is correct. Also referred to as set up. 2. The paper used while making all the necessary adjustments before printing the actual run. Also referred to as set up.

Proof
A copy of the artwork representing the finished product. It is used for review and approval.

Misregister
A problem in multiple color printing when the different color images do not line up properly as the successive colors are printed on the page.

Trapping
The overlapping of adjoining colors or ink to help prevent the possibility of a fine white area showing between colors due to misregistration of color negatives or due to normal variations on the press.



Make-ready sheets would be used for the printing press and then used for the cutters. Make-ready sheets would get mixed into the other sheets by mistake and cut and shipped. When you are cutting 4" thick blocks of press sheets, into 1" x 2" cards, the last thing you would want to do is go through the entire stack to check for a miscut card. If there were ten cards in that row, you would not want to take a chance on these stacks falling over and having to re-stack every card, especially when you're working with thousands of small cards. More concentration would be spent making sure your fingers are not in the blades and that your blocks used to hold the stacks, were actually holding the stacks up so they would not fall over.

Hand cut cards are NOT make-ready material and more than likely did not come from the factory. A printer would be proud of his/her product and would not take a pair of scissors and cut it up. Most likely, it was a child, at home, back when kids would actually do something constructive. If a card has been hand cut, instead of straight cut by a machine, it should be considered as "altered" or "trimmed", not make-ready or waste that was smuggled out in someones pocket. In my opinion, a hand-cut card should only be acceptable if the card had to be cut out from some other product.

A prepress proof is made prior to the product ever being printed in quantities. I worked in a printing company for years and had to burn images from four color separation negatives onto a sheet of paper and then rub different colored toners on each image until the final proof was obtained, laminated and approved by the customer, prior to ever being considered for printing. printwiki.org/Cromalin The four color separation would come from a camera shot and scanned to separate the four colors. You have four basic colors, Black, Cyan Magenta and Yellow. Each color has it own angle of half-tone dots, so you do not end up with a moire during printing. Besides these four main colors, there are several thousand other special colors that can be made. The majority of customers want to stay with the four color process to keep the costs down. instead of printing special colors and having to wash out the cylinders of the press for a special color run.

Prepress Proof
Any proof that has been made, using a photographical process opposed to a press proof that is an actual printed copy off the press.

Press Proof
A proof that is produce on the press using the inks and paper specified for that order.

Laminate Proof
A type of proof that uses laminate powdered toner to create a color image, such as Matchprint and Cromalin® proofs.

[mrvster]

great input.....but i'm sure some complete sheets never made it to machines for cutting for whatever reason.....the Ewing has oversized characteristics from the scan.....I'd love to know the dimensions top/to bottom on this card......it doesn't have any of the other obvious scrap characteristics. I mentioned earlier...


this was obviously not a "make ready" sheet, or falling in any of those definitions, but certain T206 cards we know never made it into the packs for distribution....Ewing is a "debatable" card making it a "tweener" scrap to me

tweener= an "in-between" can't make up our mind but leaning toward printer's scrap

[oldphil]

I feel that scrap=(s)crap.

[Bocabirdman]

Keeping things simple, wouldn't scrap be stuff never intended for the public?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Keeping things simple wouldn't scrap be stuff never intended for the public?

What about proofs then?

[barrysloate]

I would define scrap as something the printer intended to discard, and not make available to the public via normal business channels. Scraps that enter our hobby were either pulled out of the trash, given as a gift to an employee (maybe one who had young kids), or in some cases sneaked out of the factory when nobody was looking.

Leon's Brown Old Mill/ Cy Young /Southern leaguer/ kitchen sink card would be a scrap because the printer was likely experimenting with different inks and plates, and then planning to throw out the sheet.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Leon

What about proofs then?

If the proof was intended for some other purpose and walked out of the factory in someone's lunchbox, perhaps you could make a case for scrap. Actually we call it what we want when we want. I was only offering up a simplistic answer. Barry elaborated on it a touch. Scrap, to me, was intended for the trash bin and rescued. Misprints are Quality Control misses. (In my humblest of opinions.)

[drcy]

Scraps were sheets where the printing didn't come out right, so they were thrown away (scrapped) and someone figuratively or literally retrieved them from the trash can and hand cut the cards. The worker may have brought the sheet home for his kids.

Most scraps are handcut and have bad or missing printing. A lot of the psychedelic misprints, cards missing colors or terribly overlapping colors are scraps-- tossed away due to the bad printing. They often have blank backs but can have printed backs.

Most proofs offered for sale are actually scraps.

Scraps really only have extra value if the printing is especially unusual and striking. If entire colors are strikingly missing, such a card printed in only black and yellow, or the color alignment is totally off to the point of causing vertigo, that can bring a premium. I assume blank backs bring a premium. Otherwise, the card is just printing that didn't meet standards and should be valued less than a factory finished card.

I wouldn't surprised if factory cut blank backs made it into cigarette packs. Blank backs have been pulled out of Topps packs. I pulled a blank back out of a 1979 Topps pack as a kid.

Identifying proofs of cards is tricky. Sometimes they are on different stock and have crosses and marks so can be identified as such, while other times they look just like blank back misprints. I've had proofs from 1989 Gurnsey Topps Archive auction that looked just like regular blank back cards. The fronts were normal with all the printing. The only way I knew for sure they were proofs was Topps said they were. Other proofs from the same auction were clearly proofs just looking at them, as they were on very different stock (smooth bright white instead of the normal rough grey/brown Topps stock), blank backed and the fronts contained as few as one color and had no text. One proof had just the yellow ink.

The most interesting trading card proof I have is on transparent mylar sheets. Each sheet has a different color ink and when you put sheets on top of each other you get the finished design. It's clearly not a scrap.

[Bocabirdman]

I just talked to a printer. He describes things as:

Scrap....Make-Readies for a run. (Leon's Masterpiece would indeed be Scrap)
Misprints....Lapses in Quality Control
Proof.... Test Print or Prints to achieve a perfect example. Failed Proofs would be Scrap in the days before computers.

[Pete Pyro]

The scrap craze should come with a caveat if it's for investment. They are interesting examples of one-of-a-kind cards, but it seems too much like the "tulip" bubble reference

[mrvster]

as collectors become more advanced in the set, they realize the scrap's uniqueness and rarity.....they are just finally getting the recognition they deserve.....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by mrvster

as collectors become more advanced in the set, they realize the scrap's uniqueness and rarity.....they are just finally getting the recognition they deserve.....

Nice appeal to scrap collectors sense of self worth and perception of intelligence!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Nice appeal to scrap collectors sense of self worth and perception of intelligence!

He has a point though. When you are a die hard T206 collector and finish up what is doable for you, then what? From experience I can confidently say some collectors that are life long collectors, and have completed the whole set, have started collecting them.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

He has a point though. When you are a die hard T206 collector and finish up what is doable for you, then what? From experience I can confidently say some collectors that are life long collectors, and have completed the whole set, have started collecting them.

Leon...that's a really nice sentiment on valentines day...like a good relationship...the love keeps growing as you expose more about your mate!

Or in my case...once I saw the Lunacy within(T206 that is)...I broke up with her!!!!!