New Discovery to the Hobby - E98 Old Put Back with an Orange Front!

[Tim Kindler]

IF this card is authentic, we have a new discovery to our hobby. I believe it is the first E98 with an Orange Background to be found with an Old Put stamped back. Collectors of the past at one time believed that all Old Put stamped E98s came only with a red background. We now know that there are 5 documented and pictured examples of E98s with a blue background. Well if this example that I now own is authentic, then we have one with an orange background as well as the reds and blues known. I'm 99% sure that this card and the stamp on the back is authentic. I have talked with Pete C. who also specializes in E98s, and he feels that this card is authentic as well after discussing its background with the seller.

The card itself- The thickness, size, and feel of the card feels correct to me and I have handeled easily at least 200 E98s in my years of collecting them. The colors are correct- front of the card, name on front, and the checklist on the back. I feel that this card is 100% an E98.

The Back Stamp- The color is correct. Old Puts vary on the richness and darkness of the purple stamp. For example- Pete's Wagner has a deep, dark purple color, Leon's Bresnahan has a faded purple, while mine such as the Young and Brown have an average purple look like the one on this Davis. The font on every letter is correct in size and the vein look of the purple in the letters is similiar to others. Even the T matches other Old PUts in which if you look carefully it gets skinnier as it goes up to the cross bar in T.
I'm 99% sure this is an authentic stamp. Of course, I don't have anyway to test it or look at it the way a TPG might.

The Kicker!- Here's the only problem and complication to this card in my opinion.- It's Laminated! I know in the 80s many collectors laminated their cards for protection. Why? Not sure. I gues it was a craze, sort of like schelacking an autographed ball to preserve it. Some might argue that it is fake and they laminated it to cover up a fake stamp. I don't buy it because it's a Davis that is damaged and would only grade a 10 or A anyway. If you were going to fake an Old Put and try to seal it somehow with laminate to keep it from being authenticated, wouldn't you do it with a more expensive card/player?

A couple questions for board members out there.
1. Do you think it is an authentic Old PUt Back?
2. Is there any way to get the laminate off without damaging the card.
3. Would SGC grade it AUTHENTIC with the laminate on it. I know they grade cards with scotch tape on them, so why not laminate?

Thanks for any thoughts on this New Discovery.
Tim Kindler

[ullmandds]

Wow...that's big Tim! Looks real to me...but I have no idea how to remove laminate or whether SGC will grade it? Good luck!

[Cardboard Junkie]

That's very cool!

[Jantz]

Knowing nothing about E98s, I really can't help you Tim, but I wanted to say that this is an interesting discovery and congrats on adding the card to your collection.

Its always exciting seeing new discoveries on this board.


Jantz

[sportzjunky]

Is it plausible that the heat from the laminator turned the red into orange during the lamination process? Those things can get pretty hot... Probably not, but just thinking out loud...

Congrats on the find!

[MyGuyTy]

Originally Posted by sportzjunky

Is it plausible that the heat from the laminator turned the red into orange during the lamination process? Those things can get pretty hot... Probably not, but just thinking out loud...

Congrats on the find!

I think if that were the case, wouldn't the other colors on the front be distorted and different too? Just a counter thought.

[Leon]

The stamp looks good to me. I wish it weren't laminated as I can't be 100% on the color, but it looks good. Maybe with it in hand you can see it better and know the color is good more than from a scan. Congrats on the pick up.

[Tao_Moko]

Seems plausible that it was laminated to preserve the stamp if the owner knew he had something special. Terrible idea, but effective in preservation to this point. One concern I would have is trying to remove the laminate. I had a couple bring in some Goudey's to the shop I worked in back in the 80's and they had laminated them in a sheet form. There were bubbles and the laminate did not stick to every card so I bought the sheet and attempted to cut around each card and peel the laminate off where the edges were bubbled and exposed. It does not work while the adhesive is still sticky!!! That was 25 years ago and I wonder if the laminate has yellowed and dried where it might come off now. Anyway, cool find and I don't see any red flags based on the scans. Comparing the stamp under a loop to a known authentic one might help.

[hshrimps]

You can run the card again in the laminate machine using low heat setting. Once the card is out from the machine and still warm, cut open the edge and take the card out this way. I have tried this method before to remove a Jordan RC from lamination. Hope this help.

[t206trader]

Laminate often binds to the paper fibers if under enough heat. If this occurs, you may ruin the card in your attempt to free it. I say let sleeping dogs lie. Congrats on the pickup!

[ethicsprof]

congratulations!
a great discovery and fine looking card!
all the best,
barry

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

What does "Old Put" mean?

[caramelcard]

Tim,

Looking at it next to other legit examples, the stamp is the right size. It has the right amount of space between letters and between the the old put phrase and the bottom phrase. Looks good to me. And it's definitely orange. Red E98s wouldn't fade to a deep orange color.

Nice find!! Exciting stuff.

This is why it's so hard to put theories together concerning these old cards. Something always comes out of the woodwork.

Rob

[Tim Kindler]

Everyone,
Thanks for the compliments on this new discovery for Old Put E98s. I won it off the bay a few weeks ago. Pete C. was bidding against me and was kind enough to let it go and not bid me up too high. (Thanks Pete!, I really didn't know who I was bidding against until I talked with him a few days later) I told Pete on the phone that I wasn't 100% sure if it was even real and that I wouldn't know until it was in my hands. I'm not much of a gambler, but I decided to take a chance. As Leon mentioned, it is hard to be sure if something is real until you get it in your hands. Once I touched it, and put it up to other E98s and the four other Old Put Backs I own, I'm convinced it's the real deal. As Rob mentioned, it's definately an Orange, not a faded or discolored red. The stamp matches exactly with other authentic ones - color- font size (Though I don't have a loupe to look at it with.)
I think I am just going to leave it laminated. There are no bubbles or weak spots of the laminate and I'm definately not that big of a gambler! I just hope that SGC will grade it. Not that I need a TPG to be the above everyone else judge on authenticity, I think most of us can judge the authenticity of raw cards on our own, it's just that my entire Master Set is in SGC holders and I would like this one to go with them.

Like others have mentioned, the most exciting thing about our hobby is when new things come up! I even have a type that Leon- The King of Types- doesn't have!
Tim

[ullmandds]

C'mon Tim...a master e98 set++...but no loupe???

[Tim Kindler]

Alex,
"Old Put" was the nickname given to a Revolutionary War hero by the name of Isreal Putnam. His heroics and unwillingness to retreat led to his nickname. There is a railroad line between New York and Maryland, I believe?, that is named The Old Put line. I'm assuming that this railway line was named after Putnam. The stamp is for advertisement for a 5 Cent Cigar named OLD PUT. I know I , and I'm sure others, have looked for years to find information, advertisements, or boxes/wrappers of OLD PUT cigars without an success. The greatest mystery is were these just E98s with a cigar stamp advertising cigars or were they included with the cigars which would make them a cigar card??? This debate has raged for years, just like who even made E98s!

If any one has every seen anything about Old Put cigars, please post it on the board.
Thanks,
Tim

[Tim Kindler]

I know Pete, to those who hate TPG I am a sinner. I trust them... but I mainly just like the black background on SGC holders

[kamikidEFFL]

no idea about these cards but i have my fingers crossed that its real and opening something new up to our hobby.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Seems plausible that it was laminated to preserve the stamp if the owner knew he had something special. Terrible idea, but effective in preservation to this point.

I doubt it was laminated because of the Old Put stamp. There were other cards in the collection that were similarly laminated. Also I am not sure how recently Old Put stamps became popular as a more valuable subset.

[jcmtiger]

I don't know anything about these cards, but I purchased a Ty Cobb T205 years ago and it was laminated. I sent it to SGC and it was deemed fake. Hope this card is good.

Joe

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Tim Kindler

...I know I , and I'm sure others, have looked for years to find information, advertisements, or boxes/wrappers of OLD PUT cigars without an success...If any one has every seen anything about Old Put cigars, please post it on the board.

Thanks,

Tim

Found this online. Not mine.

http://www.cigarlabelart.com/auct%209/inner_10.htm

[Tim Kindler]

Eric,
Thanks for posting a picture of what I beleive would be the underside to the cover of a cigar box of Old Put Cigars???? The colors are beautiful on it and I wish I had one! I guess that is what Israel Putnam looked like.

dstudeba- As you mentioned, the seller had other, less significant cards for sale along with this Davis Old Put that were laminated the same way. Pete C. said he had contact with the seller about the same thing which also leads him to believe that not just this one card was targeted with laminate to cover up something fishy.

jcmtiger- Sorry about your Cobb fake, but it also backs up one of my points that it is a Davis that is laminated, not a Cobb, Wagner, Matewson, or one of the Big Boy E98s. If it was laminated to deceive, you would think it would be a very valuable one from the set, like a T205 Cobb.

Take Care,
Tim

[NYHighlanderFan]

This card may have come from the same print shop as that Walsh blue back Old Mill.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by NYHighlanderFan

This card may have come from the same print shop as that Walsh blue back Old Mill.

Not likely.

[Tim Kindler]

What evidence links this to the blue Old Mill T206 back???

[NYHighlanderFan]

The T205 Joss that same guy had laminated made me cringe.

[NYHighlanderFan]

I was only joking around by bringing up the Walsh because it was a huge topic of conversation on this board and within our hobby. And in terms of discovery, this card should be equally as huge!

BUT...the question always arises with any "one-of-a-kind" card...where are the others from that particular print run and sheet. We all know, no card is printed alone and by itself!

My suggestion is to not attempt to remove the lamination! Hopefully a grading company can do analysis on the printing process through the plastic to at least give it an "A"!!!

[Bestdj777]

SGC graded a 52 Mantle with plastic adhered to the front of it, so there is a chance they would grade this. Good luck and awesome find.

[Tim Kindler]

Joe,
No problem, just used to seeing somesort of smiley face with sarcasm. Yes, there is no doubt that any rare cards that come up like this could turn out to be nonauthentic. I'm pretty confident on this one though just based on the characteristics of this one as compared to other E98s with the Old PUt Stamp that have been known for years and a provenance that has been established for each. I'm pretty sure that the everyone who has studied these Overprints (Old PUTS that is) agrees that these were put on with somesort of a stamp. If these OLD PUTS were put on during the printing process in a sheet, they would all be uniform in where they were stamped on the back of each card. If you look at the approximately 25 known E98s with Old Put stamps, they are pretty much all over the place in their locations on the backs. Some are straight, slanted, opposite directions etc.

As I stated before, I have taken a gamble with this one. I hope to take it to the National and hopefully SGC or others from the board can give me their take on it after they have held it in person. I am more sure of its authenticity after having it in my hands.
Take Care,
Tim

[NYHighlanderFan]

I have no doubt the card is legit...and so were the T205 & T206 cards he was selling with the lamination too. Sorry if I sounded like I was questioning its authenticity. That laminated gold border Joss really did make me cringe though!

But I am still patiently waiting for another blue back Old Mill to surface...as most of us, I am sure!

[NYHighlanderFan]

Thanks Tim!

My guess would be they were overstamped with the Old Put brand by the German immigrant pack stuffers on the line right at the Old Put factory!