Wildly Inconsistent PSA Grades

[turtleguy64]

One negative offshoot of all those Collector Club bargain grading offers which appear monthly from PSA: crazy inconsistency.My most agregious example: I have submitted the same card three times in the last year and a half and received a different result from each submission.Bought a beautiful 1963 Topps last card in the set Johnny Temple card.Sent it in ,got an 8 with qualifier of stain.Holy Moly,missed that.Broke card out of holder,eliminated the stain,resubmitted ,then received a 6.That got me po'ed.Broke it out again,resubmitted,now got the correct 8 .This is NOT right.Lookl,sometimes the wait seems interminable to get your graded cards back after one of those Club Specials.But I would wait even longer for my graded cards as long as I knew that someone over there at PSA was taking the time to give me the right grades.I am guessing a lot of you feel the same way.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by turtleguy64

... eliminated the stain,resubmitted ,then received a 6.That got me po'ed.Broke it out again,resubmitted ...This is NOT right. ...

You're correct. The card deserves an Authentic grade.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

You're correct. The card deserves an Authentic grade.

Why authentic? What it if were a wax stain?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Why authentic? What it if were a wax stain?

It's okay to remove wax stains?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

It's okay to remove wax stains?

Are you serious? Why wouldn't it be?

[4815162342]

Are you serious?

http://www.psacard.com/Services/PSAGradingStandards/

"N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains."

http://www.sgccard.com/grading_scale.htm

"Bleached: Generic term for the chemical process of cleaning or removing stains or dirt."

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Are you serious?

http://www.psacard.com/Services/PSAGradingStandards/

"N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains."

http://www.sgccard.com/grading_scale.htm

"Bleached: Generic term for the chemical process of cleaning or removing stains or dirt."

Most wax stains can easily be removed with a cloth - most people prefer nylons. I have removed plenty of wax stains from cards in my 27 years of collecting and I have never used any type of solution or chemical to do so.

[KCRfan1]

People who play the lottery usually lose. Have you talked with Mrvintage? He seems to have the same problem as you do. Crack resubmit, crack resubmit, crack resubmit.......except he is unhappy with 9's. Are you happy with your grade now, or can we look forward to another post about cracking and resubmitting because the grade was " wrong "?

[ullmandds]

The title of this thread is rhetorical...right?

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

People who play the lottery usually lose. Have you talked with Mrvintage? He seems to have the same problem. Crack resubmit, crack resubmit, crack resubmit.......except he is unhappy with 9's.

+1 foolish man

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Most wax stains can easily be removed with a cloth - most people prefer nylons. I have removed plenty of wax stains from cards in my 27 years of collecting and I have never used any type of solution or chemical to do so.

It's still altering a card. Not to say I don't condone it, I have removed wax stains like this in the past.

To the OP, it seems like PSA got your card right 3 out of 3 times. You feel that it was NM-MT, PSA agreed with you the first time and gave you an 8 ST. You removed the stain and it got a 6. Perhaps a grader saw remnants of the stain (most likely scenario) and rightfully knocked the card down a bit. You still thought it was NM-MT and the third grader agreed (either he didn't see the stain or he saw it and felt that it wasn't enough to knock the card down a grade). This is just three separate opinions on the same card. All of the opinions were technically right.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

It's still altering a card.

I'll play your childish game. What is your definition of altering?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'll play your childish game. What is your definition of altering?

I would say altering would be to change the appearance of a card from it's original form..

So, I would consider "original form" as the way it came out of a pack/box/vending machine. So if it came out of the pack with a wax stain, that's how it was issued. I wouldn't consider removing glue residue from the back of a t206 card as altering because that wasn't how it was issued. Just like I wouldn't consider removing a price sticker from a card altering either, but I would consider removing wax stains as alterations.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I would say altering would be to change the appearance of a card from it's original form..

So, I would consider "original form" as the way it came out of a pack/box/vending machine. So if it came out of the pack with a wax stain, that's how it was issued.

Ahhh, ok. Got it. So, if I were to open a 1962 Topps wax pack and the cards were good, but the gum had deteriorated into dust, it wouldn’t be okay to wipe the gum dust from the cards if I wanted to submit them for grading? After all, that’s the “original form” as they came out of the pack. Wow, who knew?

[KCRfan1]

David, what is going on here this morning?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ahhh, ok. Got it. So, if I were to open a 1962 Topps wax pack and the cards were good, but the gum had deteriorated into dust, it wouldn’t be okay to wipe the gum dust from the cards if I wanted to submit them for grading? After all, that’s the “original form” as they came out of the pack. Wow, who knew?

I think that is a very interesting interpretation of an otherwise reasonable definition.

Also, I never said altering a card isn't okay. Actually I specifically stated that I don't mind it. I think that we all need to use our best judgment as to what is ethical and reasonable, but small things (like removing wax stains or a price sticker or soaking a card) is alright in my book. I'm sure not too many people would mind if you wipe the gum dust off of a card

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ahhh, ok. Got it. So, if I were to open a 1962 Topps wax pack and the cards were good, but the gum had deteriorated into dust, it wouldn’t be okay to wipe the gum dust from the cards if I wanted to submit them for grading? After all, that’s the “original form” as they came out of the pack. Wow, who knew?

The discussion about whether or not removing stains is altering a card should have stopped with my post #6. Ridiculous.

[Republicaninmass]

They are consistently inconsistent, but ce La vie

1952 Topps Merril combs looks like a 9 or better
Was PSA evid trim
Was PSA 6
Was SGC 7
Was PSA 5
Was PSa evid trim

IT AINT TRIMMED

Going to hit 1,000 in grading fees and sell it for 500

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

The discussion about whether or not removing stains is altering a card should have stopped with my post #6. Ridiculous.

Your post was ridiculous. It uses the words “whitener” “solution” and “chemical process”

Tell me, is taking a nylon to remove wax from the surface of a card considered a whitener, a solution or a chemical process. I'm awaiting your answer.

[bobbyw8469]

Is removing something that shouldn't have been there in the first place altering?? The card shouldn't have come with wax stain on it. Little Bobby shouldn't have drawn a fu-manchu mustache on Namath's rookie card way back in 1965. That gob of gunk that someone spilled on the card back in 1956 shouldn't have been on there. I know this is a gray area, and I know some people don't agree with Dick Towle, but he said it best. Removal of something that shouldn't have been there in the first place isn't really altering. Trimming an edge or corner, now that is altering.

[MattyC]

If you are collecting and not selling, why do you need some random dude to tell you what you know you have? Love the card and trust your eyes. Admire the card not a sticker.

If selling, I get it.

But as someone noted above, looks like the random, subjective opinions did get it correct at least 2 of 3 times, if not all three.

Baseball players get paid a lot more to go 2 for 3, and that's considered great success

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Is removing something that shouldn't have been there in the first place altering?? The card shouldn't have come with wax stain on it. Little Bobby shouldn't have drawn a fu-manchu mustache on Namath's rookie card way back in 1965. That gob of gunk that someone spilled on the card back in 1956 shouldn't have been on there. I know this is a gray area, and I know some people don't agree with Dick Towle, but he said it best. Removal of something that shouldn't have been there in the first place isn't really altering. Trimming an edge or corner, now that is altering.

Like you said, it's a gray area. I think it all depends on how severe the damage is to the card and how much work is required to fix it. Personally, once we start using chemicals and reagents it is altering in my book, but I'm sure some would disagree.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Question for Jason and Daryl:

If you buy a PSA graded card and there is sticky residue from where a price sticker once was and you clean the residue, are you altering the slab?

Are you slab alterers???

[Fuddjcal]

probably one of the most asinine things I have read about lately...Who in their right mind would be Anal Eddie enough to crack the stupid card 3 times to get a particular grade? You know the grading is subjective, right? You know PSA plays favorites, right? you know that it's a scam right? Who gives a s***?

The fact that they can't tell you doctored the card speaks volumes about what PSA can and can't do.... BOY, I WONDER IF ANY OTHER DOCTORED CARDS made it into slabs for their best customers???This is just laughable in my opinion what card collectors are doing these days.

Me thinks you should crack your head open and submit it to a doctor...

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Your post was ridiculous. It uses the words “whitener” “solution” and “chemical process”

Tell me, is taking a nylon to remove wax from the surface of a card considered a whitener, a solution or a chemical process. I'm awaiting your answer.

Removing the stain is altering the card regardless of the process. What PSA and SGC are saying is that they can more easily detect stain removal if chemicals were involved. Whether or not you can fool the graders with your card altering skills doesn't change the fact that it's altering.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Question for Jason and Daryl:

If you buy a PSA graded card and there is sticky residue from where a price sticker once was and you clean the residue, are you altering the slab?

Are you slab alterers???

That's an even more interesting interpretation to an otherwise reasonable definition

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Question for Jason and Daryl:

If you buy a PSA graded card and there is sticky residue from where a price sticker once was and you clean the residue, are you altering the slab?

Are you slab alterers???

Come on man.

[scooter729]

Even as an 8, you've just paid more in grading fees than the card is worth.

The last two PSA 8 sales have been $15.50 and $16.99. Here's one from a couple of days ago:
Temple PSA 8

I (somewhat) understand when people are attempting to play these games when the price jump is hundreds or thousands of dollars, but I can't see why it'd be worth it for a card like this, gum stain or no gum stain....

[turtleguy64]

I don't see a single thing wrong with removing a surface wax stain on the front with a silk stocking which is the preferred method.The reverse wax stain removal is a completely different story.

[turtleguy64]

Yes,the price on the PSA 8 1963 Temple has fallen in the last 6 months from an average 27.00 to that 15.00 dollar range.Due to enormous Collector Club submissions fattening up the pop. numbers.And in fact,that is happening with many other formerly low pop cards.This will continue.

[turtleguy64]

It probably was not worth it to twice crack open a graded card. Anger got the best of me.Plus,right is right and I won't accept a downgrade from an 8 to a 6 due to an effort to quickly get through a submission "because of a backup."

[KCRfan1]

So Turtle, are you happy with the grade now?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Removing the stain is altering the card regardless of the process. What PSA and SGC are saying is that they can more easily detect stain removal if chemicals were involved. Whether or not you can fool the graders with your card altering skills doesn't change the fact that it's altering.

From PSA's website...

"wax stain
A stain on a card caused by the wax on the card wrapper. Wax stains on a card front can be removed, due to the coating on the card surface, while wax stains on the card reverse are permanent."

http://www.psacard.com/Resources/Lingo/W

Keep typing. I find your logic amusing.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

From PSA's website...

"wax stain
A stain on a card caused by the wax on the card wrapper. Wax stains on a card front can be removed, due to the coating on the card surface, while wax stains on the card reverse are permanent."

http://www.psacard.com/Resources/Lingo/W

Keep typing. The more you do, the more foolish you look.

Thanks for calling me foolish.

You never mentioned removal of stains only being okay if on the front of the card.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

From PSA's website...

"wax stain
A stain on a card caused by the wax on the card wrapper. Wax stains on a card front can be removed, due to the coating on the card surface, while wax stains on the card reverse are permanent."

http://www.psacard.com/Resources/Lingo/W

Keep typing. I find your logic amusing.

I think everyone here knows that wax stains on the front of a card can be removed... I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Baseball players get paid a lot more to go 2 for 3, and that's considered great success

Way off subject, but if a player went 2 for 3 (if referring to BA) then that would be amazing. We are just happy if they go 1 for 3, heck a career at 2 for 7 could even be HOF worthy if other stats line up.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Thanks for calling me foolish.

You never mentioned removal of stains only being okay if on the front of the card.

No, but it was inferred when I said using a nylon to remove a wax stain. You can't remove wax stains from the back of a card with a nylon, therfore you knew what I was talking about.

Your statement was rather general, however. You said removing a wax stain was altering - no matter the front or the back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the argument is about whether it's OK to remove a wax stain from the front, I am as big an opponent of alteration as anyone but this doesn't bother me at all. I don't agree with Dick Towle's broader definition of what's OK at all.

[vintagecpa]

I don't see how you could have a thread like this without showing the Art Shell that went from a PSA 8 to a 10. That isn't playing the grading lottery, that is finding the golden goose.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

This thread is a stain in the forum. Can someone please wipe it off?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

This thread is a stain in the forum. Can someone please wipe it off?

Try wonder bread!

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Try wonder bread!

I bought a card with some pencil on it. I am definitely trying wonder bread on it when it gets here.

[turtleguy64]

Turtleguy is very happy.I had to prove a point with PSA graders,cost me more bucks to prove that one of their graders is not focusing on his job.Case closed.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the argument is about whether it's OK to remove a wax stain from the front, I am as big an opponent of alteration as anyone but this doesn't bother me at all. I don't agree with Dick Towle's broader definition of what's OK at all.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on where to draw the line, I too don't fully agree with Towle's broad definiton. Is the line cleaning a card in water, how about water with an "all-natural" cleaner? What about glue or other residue removal?