Lelands Lot #153 Heads Up.

[wonkaticket]

Just a heads up to any members who may consider buying/bidding on lot #153 in Leland’s current auction.

I reached out to them after seeing the item listed for sale to let them know a bit of the history of this item. The item while original has had a massive amount of work done, above and beyond what most collectors would consider preservation or minor restoration.

The item was once listed for sale on eBay by Rick Kohl/BRSZ. I had contacted him upon seeing it looking to acquire a second example. I was notified by a few folks including Rick that it had undergone significant work. I ended up getting these before pictures.



I called and shared this story with Leland’s this Friday. The person I spoke with was very interested to get the many images I sent. He even agreed upon closer inspection that he could see every area where work has been done and that it mirrored exactly the before pictures.





I told him no worries some of the work that can be done is pretty amazing. Perhaps they just missed it or the consignor failed to share etc. I added they may want to amend their description to include the before images as well as change the online description a bit. As currently it implies only minor work in my opinion has been performed, certainly now armed with these images they can clearly call out more detail in terms of restoration.

I followed up my previous email today this time adding Josh Evans asking if they had planned to add in the details so potential bidders/buyers could be fully informed on the item. This was the response I received from Josh.

“It is clearly written in the description regarding restoration”

I respectfully disagreed with Josh and was a bit surprised that this would be his stance upon getting more information. I think it’s safe to assume that anyone who may buy this may not be thrilled to know that they have bought one of if not the worst condition G20 banners around especially after reading the below description to make their purchase.

“The "game-action" illustrations in each corner only add to the piece's greatness. There has been expertly-done restoration on the poster, which measures 18.75" x 30.5" in its frame. There is some chipping at the upper edges, and some residue on the reverse, meaning the poster may have been mounted at one time. A mere eight completed sets of the N28 issue have been entered into the PSA Set Registry, making this the most highly coveted poster from the Allen & Ginter family. The baseball players themselves, in effect, comprise the very first set of so-called baseball cards. As far back as the 1930s, Jefferson Burdick made note of this poster in The American Card Catalog, the first price guide, and still the most influential. The poster is in NRMT condition.”

Just giving anybody out there a heads up since it’s clear that Leland’s feels it’s done its due diligence in terms of accurately describing this lot.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is restoration and then there is RESTORATION. I think Leland's should say something about the extent of the restoration.

[Vegas-guy]

This is one of the many resonsons this site is great! Thanks for sharing John..

[e107collector]

Peter, I agree - this piece has had a total makeover.

Thanks for the heads up John.

Tony

[Steve D]

Considering that it appears the left-most 3"-4" of the poster, along with major portions extending 3"-4" in from the right border have basically been replaced, including major parts of Anson, Kelly and Ward, more specifics regarding the restorations are in my opinion, a must.

Steve

[batsballsbases]

All I can say is WOW. Thanks John for posting this.

[jcmtiger]

Lots of restoration, but to bad the Sports Collecting world does not accept restoration like the Art world does. Multi million dollar art pieces have been restored and the Art World accepts the art after the work is done. The same is to be said about the Comic Book collectors.

Joe

[mrvster]

as always....you are a super slueth

wow to this

[Cardboard Junkie]

Excellent information John. Thanks, and &@#$ Lelands.

[drcy]

Amazing restoration job, though. Earned their money. Would be nice to know who did it.

[joeadcock]

Originally Posted by drcy

Amazing restoration job, though. Earned their money. Would be nice to know who did it.

Amazing indeed.

[Cardboard Junkie]

It's so good, maybe "Panky" did it!

[joshleland]

I was not aware of the extent of the restoration until I just saw it all blown up on 54. My bad, i should have looked closer at the pics john sent me. I will correct the description early next week. But the work done speaks for itself, the piece is still magnificent as shown in the images. Josh

[bobsbbcards]

Originally Posted by joshleland

I was not aware of the extent of the restoration until I just saw it all blown up on 54. My bad, i should have looked closer at the pics john sent me. I will correct the description early next week. But the work done speaks for itself, the piece is still magnificent as shown in the images. Josh

Better late than never, I suppose.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Feeble excuse for assholism.

[wolterse]

Wow, scary how good that restoration finished up..... Thx for the heads up.

[Mikehealer]

I'm just curious as I have no interest in this poster, do the bidders that have already bid now have the option to retract their bids. It seems like they would be able to since this is a pretty big omission from the original description. It looks like at least 50% of the outer edges were missing.

I'm not sure how someone could have missed that if they were looking at both images.

[Thirteen]

I wouldn't call it restoration - I'd call it a reprint with all that was done. Thanks again to this fantastic Net54 Board!

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I'm just curious as I have no interest in this poster, do the bidders that have already bid now have the option to retract their bids. It seems like they would be able to since this is a pretty big omission from the original description. It looks like at least 50% of the outer edges were missing.

I'm not sure how someone could have missed that if they were looking at both images.

I would think legally they could Mike due to the misrepresentation by this AH.

[atx840]

Thanks for sharing this John.

That extensive of a restoration requires more then one line in the write up. If it was in similar condition to the HA example then understandably but that write up is misleading.

Josh. Can bids be retracted?

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I'm just curious as I have no interest in this poster, do the bidders that have already bid now have the option to retract their bids. It seems like they would be able to since this is a pretty big omission from the original description. It looks like at least 50% of the outer edges were missing.

I'm not sure how someone could have missed that if they were looking at both images.

i'm in agreement. there is no way you could even glance at those two images and then feel the restoration was minor.

kevin

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by joshleland

I was not aware of the extent of the restoration until I just saw it all blown up on 54. My bad, i should have looked closer at the pics john sent me. I will correct the description early next week. But the work done speaks for itself, the piece is still magnificent as shown in the images. Josh

Josh, thank you. Not sure how you missed the pictures I sent as there were more of them than here?

Also I spent 30 mins on the phone with your employee walking him thru the pictures explaining step by step.

As I said in my email and to your employee this is really as much to protect Lelands as it is the new owner. Thank you for fixing this.

At the risk of sounding nasty this just appears now that the hand is in the cookie jar you look to correct. I can't help but think that had I just left this at your email reply this would have gone off as is. Perhaps I'm wrong but I think you and Lelands could have handled this better. I took time out of my day to try and help Lelands and it's bidders. This should have never had to be a thread on this board IMO.

Thanks again for making it right.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Josh, let me know if you need all the pics, in hi-res. here are what I sent etc.

[slidekellyslide]

Holy carp! I didn't know that restoration of that magnitude could be done.

[barrysloate]

I'm trying to figure out how it was restored. In order to fill in the parts that are missing, the restorer would need a copy of an intact poster, and then literally paint in the missing parts. Where else could he get them from? You can't get them from another poster, and you can't cut down original cards because they aren't exactly the same. So we have to assume the missing parts were painted in.

Can anyone think of any other way to do this?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Graphic Conservation in Chicago certainly has this capability, although I don't know if this is their work.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/

[Cardboard Junkie]

The technology exists where by computers can do it.

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Graphic Conservation in Chicago certainly has this capability, although I don't know if this is their work.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/

I would say yes, as they have the before and after pictures of this piece on their site as an example of their work.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Indeed they do.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/b...ts-memorabilia

To transform a piece this damaged, our conservators filled and inpainted areas of the print lost through insect damage, repaired numerous tears, and strengthened the print with a lining.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Indeed they do.

http://www.graphicconservation.com/b...ts-memorabilia

To transform a piece this damaged, our conservators filled and inpainted areas of the print lost through insect damage, repaired numerous tears, and strengthened the print with a lining.

That's amazing work.

[Fred]

All in one - I'm disappointed and I'm amazed.

I'm a bit disappointed the auction house isn't posting a Before and After picture of the restoration to let everyone know exactly the amount of "restoration" that took place.

I'm amazed that something that damaged could be "restored" to look as it does now.

How much does restoration work like that cost? It's absolutely AMAZING.

[Shoeless Moe]

Your writer is incorrect on Lot 636: 1935 Babe Ruth Signed Album Page With "The Babe's" Fingerprints Outlined

"......... After his retirement as a player, "The Babe" had hoped for a job as a major league manager, alas no franchise was willing to afford him that opportunity, something that bothered the Hall of Famer until his dying day in 1948. He never worked in baseball again."


The Babe coached for the Dodgers in 1938......unless u meant after his death he never worked in baseball again,well then yes that is true : )

While you are correcting things, one more for you.

[aquarius31]

Wow, that's a major restoration. Restoration to me means cleaning up some staining/foxing, very minor touch ups and deacidfication. That said, I'm amazed that this restoration was done by hand vs computer generated!

[CW]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Lots of restoration, but to bad the Sports Collecting world does not accept restoration like the Art world does. Multi million dollar art pieces have been restored and the Art World accepts the art after the work is done. The same is to be said about the Comic Book collectors.

Joe

After watching a few episodes of Antiques Roadshow I've learned that poster collectors also accept restoration, and it can definitely increase the value of a damaged poster. I'd imagine this A&G banner would have that crossover appeal -- ie. sports memorabilia and poster collectors, with the latter already accepting this type of restoration.

While I wouldn't be bidding on this, thanks for the exposure, John.

This type of restoration is amazing, and I think when a piece is so far deteriorated or damaged, the restoration should be accepted within the hobby as it now becomes an enjoyable piece. Full disclosure on these types of restorations should obviously be disclosed when these pieces are sold.

[D. Bergin]

That had to cost a fortune to restore. I've only heard good things about the work of this company for years.

Just like a restored car or any other restored piece of art, the work should be disclosed, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.

I'd much rather have the restored version of that poster, no matter how much work was done to it, rather then that torn up version for display, same as I'd rather have a restored '67 Mustang, rather then the original rusted out hull and corroded engine that it started out as.

[Bpm0014]

"I should have looked more closely at the pics that John sent". Not that I would be a buyer for this, but what a laughable excuse. It's a shame that this auction house doesn't look more closely at their auction items. Are they this lax with their autographs and other items?

[calvindog]

Maybe Josh's dog was responsible for handling this item's description in the catalog? I understand he's an important part of the Leland's auction team, Department of Shill Bidding.

I'm convinced that no matter how many second chances these auction house principals get, no matter how many tears they shed, they simply cannot control themselves when given a chance to lie in order to make a buck. What a disgrace.

[1880nonsports]

could you elaborate a little about Josh and shill bidding?

[buymycards]

So, I guess it's OK if I remove the first back from the card and replace it with the second back, as long as I disclose that the card has been "restored"?

At least in this case I am using an original back. Would it be OK if I printed a back from my computer and attached it to the card and said the card was restored?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

could you elaborate a little about Josh and shill bidding?

Yes -- there's been massive shill bidding in Lelands's auctions. If Josh comes on here and denies it -- he won't -- I'll go into painstaking detail.

[3-2-count]

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

+1. I, too, take my hat off to John, Jeff, and many others for the efforts they make/have made to expose instances of wrongdoing in our hobby.
Val

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

+1.

"My bad" isn't a very satisfactory response given the scale of the fraud.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

I for one think its awesome that the AH's pulling these stunts are called out publicly on this forum and are pursued by respected collectors in our hobby such as Jeff and John.

Although it doesn't totally stop these thieves it does get their attention and makes so many others aware of the wrong doing that's happening right before our eyes.

These crimes affect us all in some way. Jeff, John, thank you for all your efforts. This collector appreciates it.

Best,
Tony Andrea

+1

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Lots of restoration, but to bad the Sports Collecting world does not accept restoration like the Art world does. Multi million dollar art pieces have been restored and the Art World accepts the art after the work is done. The same is to be said about the Comic Book collectors.

Joe

Joe, I think acceptance of restoration is a bit closer than you might think: Restoration of comic books vastly de-values the item, as it does for posters. The paintings that require major restoration (never as much as this poster) are generally MUCH older that this poster. Also, posters and comic books are created by mechanical processes, while paintings are done by hand; however, restoration is done by hand for all three. It's understandable (to me, anyway) that manual restoration of manually-created art is more accepted.

[drcy]

My former brother in law was a big vintage Hollywood movie poster collector. He said a Vg poster restored to Near Mint condition would be worth more than Vg but less than Near Mint unrestored. And, either way he said, the restoration had to be disclosed at sale.

[wonkaticket]

These types of items there are really 3 types of work that collectors are ok with and is almost always disclosed and isn't hidden or glossed over. In fact in many cases its a badge of pride and they are happy to tell you of the the below.

Preservation & Stabilization: This includes perhaps stopping tears from tearing more, adding acid free backings to bring stability to the item, minor cleaning of foxing and such. All of this increases value in my mind because very little has been done short of saving it for future generations of collectors and the item is as close to original as the day it left the factory.

Minor Restoration: This includes the above steps, but may also include minor in painting of damaged sections, repairs of more major tears, adding minor amounts of material to missing sections or even recreating minor sections of missing graphics. This would increase the value of a damaged item. However if there are other better condition examples within the market place this would never sell for as much as the other examples.

Major Restoration & Recreations: This is where huge portions of an item have been fixed up, where massive amounts of damage has been replaced with newer laser printed/modern lithograph sections have been grafted into the original. These items can be a great value and unless it’s the only example known should always sell for a fraction of the above two.

That’s my take….and all of this is par for the course in these early printed lithographs nothing that any auction house wouldn’t be aware of and something that every collector would want to know.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by seablaster

I would say yes, as they have the before and after pictures of this piece on their site as an example of their work.

LOL, this makes this even more laughable. Too funny. GCC Mastronets secret weapon for many years.



GCC however is tops they and about 3 others are who I would use, not cheap but they do amazing work.

Cheers,

John

[Jeffrompa]

I would buy that poster either way . But that is clearly restorative not just reconditioned .

[calvindog]

I wonder if Leland's is the owner of this item. They sure went out of their way to hide the full work that was done on it.