E121 Reverse Back

[VoodooChild]

Hey guys,

I was reading through the "Best Card added to your 2013 Collection" thread and one member posted an E121 WaJo with a reverse back. He called that back a rare variation. I had also posted one of my E121's in that same thread, a Wally Pipp, and noticed that it also had a reverse back. I actually didn't even notice it, and after looking through my other E121's, my Pipp is the only one I have with that reverse back.

So, I tried to some research on that back and came across an archived thread. That thread did talk about there being 4 Types of backs, including reverse, that exist, but it didn't go into detail that I could see on just how "rare" the reverse back actually is.

Does anybody else have additional information on this? Or, is there another thread out there that talks about this that I just can't find? I guess my question would be: Does the same card exist with multiple versions of the back types? Does anybody have an example of the E121 Pipp without the reverse back or was it only printed with that type? Please forgive me if this has been talked about before here. I'm just starting to get into this set and obviously have a lot of research to do.

Thanks

[ValKehl]

Hi Jason,
I know very little about the four different known E121-80 back variations, but I can confirm that I have a WaJo with the Hands-at-Chest pose with a Type 1 back (most common back, I believe) in addition to having this WaJo pose with a Type 4 reversed back that I showed in the thread you mentioned. I'm curious to know if this WaJo pose was also issued with Type 2 and Type 3 backs.

I think Rhett Yeakley is the resident E121-80 back expert, and hopefully, he will chime in. Here's the link to pictures of the 4 different backs that Rhett shows on his web site: http://www.starsofthediamond.com/e121backs80.JPG

Hope this helps,
Val

[itjclarke]

For what it's worth, my Hornsby (80 series) is reverse backed... that makes 1 of my 8 for my E121s.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Hi Jason,
I know very little about the four different known E121-80 back variations, but I can confirm that I have a WaJo with the Hands-at-Chest pose with a Type 1 back (most common back, I believe) in addition to having this WaJo pose with a Type 4 reversed back that I showed in the thread you mentioned. I'm curious to know if this WaJo pose was also issued with Type 2 and Type 3 backs.

I think Rhett Yeakley is the resident E121-80 back expert, and hopefully, he will chime in. Here's the link to pictures of the 4 different backs that Rhett shows on his web site: http://www.starsofthediamond.com/e121backs80.JPG

Hope this helps,
Val

Val, thanks for the intro... what you have there is a previously uncataloged example of the tough "Type 4" back. To date there have only been a half dozen or so different players found with that back, surprisingly though I have seen several different examples of the Schalk, Johnson, and Sisler so I am unsure how many different will be found with this particular back.

The "reversed" nature of the back is not really that extraordinary, actually EVERY example of the Type 4 back that has been found has a revered back, thus a reversed back is "normal" for Type 4 cards.

FYI- For those that don't know what a Type 4 is you need only look at the first line on back, it is slightly smaller and norrower than the normal "Type 1" back. I can show a photo of the two side by side if it is needed but I don't have a scan handy!

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I'm curious to know if this WaJo pose was also issued with Type 2 and Type 3 backs.

Val, I have not yet documented on my spreadsheet a Walter Johnson with either a Type 2 or 3 back (of either pose), that being said if one were to be found (it may very well exist) it would most likely be the later throwing pose (not the hands at chest-E135 pose). The Type 2 and 3 were made at the very end of the E121-80 print run right before the E121-120 set was produced, thus it would be more likely that the "new" photo of Walter Johnson with him pitching, which had replaced the hands at chest image (found also on his E135 card) would be the most likely one to be found.

-Rhett

[VoodooChild]

Rhett and Val - Thanks so much for the info. The more research I do on this set, the more I like it. I'm only 10 cards in and my Pipp is the only non-type 1 back I have. Now I'm on the lookout for types 2 and 3! Thanks again. Happy Holidays.

[ValKehl]

Rhett, many thanks for your responses. I had forgotten that there are 4 different NON-reverse-printed back types (your web site shows Types 1, 2 & 3). I just re-read your fantastic E121 article which appeared in the Fall 2011 issue of Old Cardboard Magazine (Jason, Rhett's article is a must read if you continue to collect E121s) to refresh my memory. For Jason's benefit, I have scanned the 4 back types from your OC article and shown them below.

Rhett, which of the 4 back types can be found with the reverse-printed back? You mention that Type 4 backs have only been found on the reverse backs. I have 2 Sam Rice E121-80 cards, each with a Type 1 reverse back (the result of forgetting to take my checklist to a card show and having to rely on my pathetic memory instead!)(I'll gladly trade or sell one of them), which I have shown below. Are Type 2 and Type 3 reverse backs known to exist?
Val

[rhettyeakley]

Val, you are getting a good grasp on the set, your graphic above with the four different backs is very concise and accurate. As I stated earlier all Type 4's I have or have seen are reverse backs, The Type 1's can also be found with reverse backs, you usually see 1 reverse back for every 5-10 regular backs or so but they really aren't that "rare". I don't have my cards handy but I'm pretty sure I have a Type 3 or two that has a reverse back (but will have to check later). I have never seen the Type 2 back reversed, which is odd since of the three tough backs it is definitely the easiest to find.

I have currently checklisted in my database the following number of the tougher backs:

Type 2: 62 different
Type 3: 36 different
Type 4: 7 different

With those numbers above, the Type 3 confirmed number was at about 20 or so until I uncovered a small cache of them in a not-very-well described lot at a major auction house that had 15 new cards with that back so the Type 3's are still VERY hard to find.

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FOR VAL: I have not seen a Rice in any of the three tough backs, actually while I'm at it I know you are a Senators guys so here are the confirmed Senators I have seen in the tough backs...

Type 2--Clyde Milan
Type 3--Joe Judge (Bat on shoulder)
Type 4--Walter Johnson (hands at chest), Joe Judge (bat on shoulder)

I never really realized how few Senators there are In the set, kind of surprising!

[birdman42]

Rhett and Val,

Here's a Sam Rice with a Type 2 back.

Bill