PHOTO MYSTERY SOLVED. Joss, HOPKINS, Rhoades, and McGuire

[bbpostcards]

Can anyone please identify the mystery player? http://www.sportingoregon.com/p58119...72b2#h402b72b2 The message on the back may provide a clue: "We have the double X [double cross, presumably] on Benny here. Doc." Thanks!
THANKS TO HELP FROM THE GOOD FOLKS AT THE HALL OF FAME, THE ANSWER ON THE MYSTERY PLAYER IS THAT IT IS...NOT A PLAYER! IT IS BEN HOPKINS, A CLEVELAND BUSINESSMAN. SO, THE POSTCARD SHOWS, FROM LEFT TO RIGHT, DEACON MCGUIRE, DUSTY RHOADES, BEN HOPKINS, AND ADDIE JOSS.

[milkit1]

I'm going with heinie berger.

[bbpostcards]

Thanks, Sean, I appreciate the input. Berger was originally my thinking, too, but the confirmed Heine (the second image) seems to have eyes more close together and a more oval face. Thoughts?

[bmarlowe1]

Not Berger. This guy is not easy to identify.

[npa589]

Shoeless Joe!

[nolemmings]

Glenn Liebhardt

[Seiklis]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Glenn Liebhardt

Ding ding ding

[bmarlowe1]

Put away the bell - these are 2 different humans (Leibhardt on the right).

[nolemmings]

Wow, these guys sure look pretty close to me

[bmarlowe1]

Look at the noses in the images I posted - Leibhardt has a perfect turned up nose - a Hollywood nose job couldn't make it any better. The unknown guy has a big fat mashed nose - they couldn't be more different.

Also the unknown guy's ears stick out near the top, Leibhardt's do not. That alone indicates that he is not Leibhardt. Actually - nearly every individual feature that we can make out (eyes, brow ridge, chin, etc.) is grossly different.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but in a case like this, the fact that you can find a photo of Leibhardt that to some may look subjectively similar the the unknown player has negligible value in determining identity.

[nolemmings]

Well, I guess I'll defer then. Liebhardt seemed a logical fit, since the photo used in that postcard almost certainly came from 1908, when the Tribes' three workhorses off the mound were Rhoades, Joss and... Liebhardt. Seemed natural that they might pose together, although the McGuire connection eludes me (for now at least).

[Jacklitsch]

McGuire was the Cleveland manager 1909 to 1911.

[bbpostcards]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I should add that the postcard was sent to McGuire in New Orleans, Louisiana (presumably while Cleveland traveled to or from their Spring Training grounds in Mobile, Alabama) on March 19, 1909 from Cleveland, Ohio.

[nolemmings]

Interestingly, McGuire was not the manager at the start of the '09 season--the job belonged to Lajoie. That would explain why McGuire was not with the others when the postcard was sent to him in New Orleans. He had played but 4 games late in '08 for Cleveland and was probably by all accounts done at age 44. Must have made an impression on these players in his short time there in '08 though.

[judsonhamlin]

Mark Okkonen's book has a photo of Charlie Chech that makes him look heavy in the face, but it isn't the best. Any thoughts?

[bmarlowe1]

Chech below right. Nothing matches.

[judsonhamlin]

Yeah, that looks like the old picture of Chech with the Reds. The Indians photo makes him look fatter. But there is too much wrong, even allowing for 30 lbs or so. Maybe a coach or hanger-on that was given a uni?

[bmarlowe1]

So far went thru the '09 roster - no matches. Haven't checked '08 yet. As you say it could be a non-rostered person.

[bbpostcards]

Thanks for all the input. Maybe a guy who tried out during Spring Training who didn't make the team? My guess is that a 1909 Spring Training picture with ID's might solve the mystery.

[Seiklis]

You know at first glance I thought it was Paddy Livingston who was from Cleveland and would be a readily available spring training catcher before he joined the Athletics.

Does anyone know when Paddy joined Philadelphia in '09?

[pepis]

Judging by the very young face and small body!
i would guess the bat boy!

[bmarlowe1]

It's not Paddy Livingston nor any other easily recognized player.

The bat-boy or trainer or someone who did not make the roster is very likely.

[deadballfreaK]

I was considering Charlie Chech. Hair and eyebrows look similar. Ears lie flat to his head like the mystery man. The only pics I find of Chech are from the side and younger. All in all I think this is an older guy. Chech was 30 in 1908. I'm thinking coach.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

I was considering Charlie Chech. Hair and eyebrows look similar. Ears lie flat to his head like the mystery man. The only pics I find of Chech are from the side and younger. All in all I think this is an older guy. Chech was 30 in 1908. I'm thinking coach.

Everything you said with respect to Chech and facial comparison is wrong - why not read the prior posts before posting?

[milkit1]

I'm sticking with berger. Ears and hair are the same. I think he just weighs more in one then the other.Heres another pic that shows that the nose is similar though I'm not sure hiw big itll come up.174841d1260822748-gambo-t_wil1-photopack-heinie_berger.jpeg

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by milkit1

I'm sticking with berger. Ears and hair are the same. I think he just weighs more in one then the other.Heres another pic that shows that the nose is similar though I'm not sure hiw big itll come up.Attachment 89559

It was obvious from bbpostcard's post that this guy could not possibly be Berger. The ears do not match - Bergers stick out somewhat while those of the unknown guy are dead flat against his head.

The noses are obviously grossly different, as is the chin structure. Berger has a distinct mid chin horizontal crease, the unknown guy does not. As far as the hair being similar - the unknown guy has a hat on - what can you see that we can't?

Any possible change in weight does not account for these differences. There is nothing similar about these 2 faces other than that they belong to the same species. With all due respect, nothing you said makes any sense.

[bbpostcards]

See the first post for the ID of the mystery player, and thanks to the Hall of Fame for the answer.

[boneheadandrube]

Addie looks like he's hung over something fierce...

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by bbpostcards

Can anyone please identify the mystery player? http://www.sportingoregon.com/p58119...72b2#h402b72b2 The message on the back may provide a clue: "We have the double X [double cross, presumably] on Benny here. Doc." Thanks!
THANKS TO HELP FROM THE GOOD FOLKS AT THE HALL OF FAME, THE ANSWER ON THE MYSTERY PLAYER IS THAT IT IS...NOT A PLAYER! IT IS BEN HOPKINS, A CLEVELAND BANKER AND BUSINESSMAN AFTER WHOM THE CLEVELAND HOPKINS AIRPORT IS NAMED. SO, THE POSTCARD SHOWS, FROM LEFT TO RIGHT, DEACON MCGUIRE, DUSTY RHOADES, BEN HOPKINS, AND ADDIE JOSS.

Hmmm. The Cleveland airport was named after William R. Hopkins. I can find no reference to him as Benny. Did HoF provide any comparison photos?

[bbpostcards]

The comparison I found is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_R._Hopkins . The HOF's pic has noted on the back, Jim McGuire, Dusty Rhoades, Ben Hopkins - Cleveland businessman & banker (Cleveland's airport is named after him, Addie Joss. I assume Hopkins was nicknamed "Ben" because the Wikipedia pic and the one below are consistent. [ADDED NOTE: I just saw that a Ben F. Hopkins, a Cleveland businessman, tried to buy the team in 1915].

[bmarlowe1]

The wikipedia image of William R. Hopkins (founder of Cleveland Airport) does not match this guy. William R. Hopkins had a very turned up nose - nostrils very visible.

Ben Hopkins is a different person.

[bbpostcards]

Thanks.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Addie looks like he's hung over something fierce...

Hahaha. I was thinking the same thing....and those even look like black eyes to me.