Sen. Russell's collection incl. Doyle error & Ty Cobb back

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Correct me if I'm wrong here....but, I don't know of any other T206 collections that can boast having having
the 2 most scarcest 20th Century BB cards. Former Georgia Senator Richard B. Russell collected most of his
T-cards as a teenager during 1909-1912.
His collection is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens, GA). I'm curious if anyone on Net54 has seen
this collection. Here is the link to info regarding Senator Russell's collection......

http://www.libs.uga.edu/russell/exhibits/baseball/about.shtml

I recently acquired 40 cards from Sen. Russell's original collection. His Great Grand-daughter was selling many
of his duplicates. There were 100's of cards available and every one of them have PIEDMONT 350 backs.
Now, there are two very interesting factors here......

In one shot from this collection, I acquired 7 of the tough "ELITE EIGHT" (as I've coined them) with their very
rare PIEDMONT 350 backs. Lundgren (Cubs) was missing. These 7 cards are......

Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
Jones (St Louis)
Karger
Lindaman
Mullin (horiz.)

Secondly and more importantly....my question to any one....Since the Joe Doyle error card only exists with a
PIEDMONT 350 back, did a young Richard Russell originally acquire his Doyle card back in 1910 ? ?

And, if this is so, it would be the first reported original T206 collection from 1910 with a Joe Doyle error in it.
We cannot discount the significance of this discovery. What I find stunning about this....is that, apparently,
none of the hobby's veterans (Burdick, Barker, Carter, etc.) were ever aware of the existence of this error
card of Joe Doyle.
Senator Russell was a well-known public figure in Washington until he passed away in 1971. The U.S. Senate
Office building is named after him.
.


TED Z

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted - another interesting question relates to the Ty Cobb back which I don't believe your post addressed. While I do not have an opinion as to whether the Ty Cobb back was issued with the T-206 set or a stand alone set, nor do I have any opinions on the date at which it was issued (1910ish or 1914ish), I do find it interesting that his collection contained a Ty Cobb backed card that seems to have been obtained during the period of issue (whenever that may be) as opposed to years later. Also, I'm curious as to where the senator lived during his teenage years. If Georgia, this may add more credence to Rob L's assumption that Ty Cobb backed cards were produced for the Georgia area.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Richard Russell grew up in Winder, Georgia.

We should not assume, however, that he acquired the Doyle or the Cobb during his youth. More research is necessary.

This is why I posted this thread......hopefully, some one can answer these 2 very important questions regarding this
collection.

And, it would be nice if some one living near Athens, Georgia could check-out this collection and provide us some inputs.

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave F

Winder GA is also just a hop, skip, and a jump from Cobb's hometown. I can't imagine the Ty Cobb backs wouldn't have been available in that area...but that's just a wild guess.

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Posted By: JimB

I have read about this collection before, but hadn't put two and two together. Thanks Ted. It seems from the description that these were collected when he was a kid. The fact that they are all Piedmonts lends to this conclusion, in addition to what it says on the website. I imagine his father or someone close was probably a Piedmont smoker. If this is the case, and he lived in Georgia, this seems to lend further creedence to the idea that the Ty Cobb brand was a short-run promotional brand of the ATC distributed in Georgia during the T206 era. Maybe he convinced his dad or somebody to get a tin of Ty Cobbs to get the promotional card of his hero.
JimB

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Posted By: Dave F

I guess the Ty Cobb brand could have been distributed anywhere. But to me, logic says if it were only put on the market for a short stint and not in mass form then it would have been in either Georgia where Cobb was from or in Detroit where he played. At least to me that would be the logical thought. With Senator Russell having one and being near Cobb's hometown, strike one up for distribution in Georgia?

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Posted By: paulstratton

Considering that the Tigers had reached their third consecutive WS in 1909, is it possible these were distributed in that same year or soon after? It's pretty clear they were distributed in Georgia, as 6 of (total # existing??? 10-20??) were found there and came with a connection to Georgia politicians. Whether they were distributed anywhere else is up for debate I guess.

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Posted By: JimB

The group of 5 that REA "found" and auctioned in 1997 were discovered in a book in Georgia by the grandson of a former store owner circa 1910. Now this one from the Senator makes six confirmed from Georgia out of 12 known examples.
JimB

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Posted By: MVSNYC

OK, i've decided i'm flying down to Georgia tomorrow...

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Michael,
You would need a guide... Be well Brian

PS I'm your huckleberry...

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Brian- you can be my wingman anytime!

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Posted By: paulstratton

I do have some extra air miles... Lunch at the Capitol? There has to be at least one in those old books. Dave F is probably waiting outside as we speak...

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Posted By: Dave F

Paul-

I'll let you Brian and Michael hang out down at the State Capitol. I'll go ahead and head to Royston where there are a couple old abandoned general stores still standing just outside of town.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Ted Z.,

I don't know if this means anything or not but there was a Piedmont park in Atlanta at which the Indians trained in the early 1900's. Now I don't know if they sold heaters at the park in those days or not, but if they did I'm sure they only sold Piedmont smokes and I'd imagine a young fella like Russell could have acquired a nice collection of Piedmont T cards by scouring the ballpark grounds and asking for the cards from those packs.

Dave F.,

I once made my Dad stop in Royston on the way to Florida to see if I could find anything Cobb. He was less than thrilled and I left only with a can of Royston dirt, but I was still happy. You find anything you let us know...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think it's pretty clear that the Ty Cobb brand was distributed in Georgia, and because it is so rare it is safe to say it probably wasn't available anywhere else.

Likewise, because it was found with this large group of Piedmonts, the chance of it being a circa 1910 issue improves.

What still remains a mystery is how it was distributed, and whether it was part of the T206 rubric or if the design was copied due to the great popularity of the set.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL S

I have acquired two small T206 finds from northern Georgia, where all the cards were PIEDMONT's.

So, you are probably right.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dave,
I've been to Royston a few times... along with a million other collectors seeking cards, but didn't find anything. I believe the hospital he built still bears his name as well as the mausoleum in which he is buried, but that's about all there is too see. Be well Brian

PS On second thought I think his sister's house was still standing the last time I visited.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My cursory observation of 100+ cards from Russell's original collection, indicates that they indeed were 1910.
Since they all have PIEDMONT 350 backs....even all the Southern Leaguers are PIEDMONT 350's.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I cannot believe that no one has pounced on the "bigger story" presented here. We have a "King-Kong" size gorilla in this story......
and, that is....did a young Richard Russell in 1910 found a Joe Doyle error card in his Dad's Piedmont cigarette packs ?

If this is so, then why wasn't Burdick, or Carter, or other hobby greats aware of this card ? Russell was a well known public figure.
And, even if Russell did not get his Doyle in 1910, when did he acquire this card ?

He passed away in 1971....a full decade before Larry Fritsch and Bill Huggins brought this rare card to the forefront.

Come on guys, let's talk this up....this is real "heavy stuff"....this is the stuff that (BB card) dreams are made of ? ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Dave F

Brian-

There is always fences to jump to get to things if you can outrun the dogs or shotguns. It's been a few years since I've hopped fences...but I'm game if you guys are.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Ted Z.,

Is it possible this J.Doyle error card just went unnoticed for all those years? Back in those days it would have been almost impossible for collectors to compare Doyles.

Another useless tidbit which could play a role...Cobb's father was a Senator in the Georgia State Legislature and likely would have known these other politicians who have been drawn into this mystery. Though he got blown away by Cobb's mother before these cards were ever produced it does add some intrigue to the story, for me it does anyway.

Edited to say scratch that, he wouldn't have known Russell. It was a reach anyway.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Paul said exactly what I was thinking: is it possible that the "Natl" was simply missed by Burdick and others? Could it just be human error, a simple oversight? Perhaps not, but it's possible.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Impossible....that one of the great hobby veterans would not have noticed the "Nat'l" caption on the Joe Doyle card.
Sure, our experience shows that perhaps less than 10 of these error cards exist, but there were 100's of no -"Nat'l"
Joe Doyle's for them to compare with.
I cannot vouch for Burdick, Carter, etc....but, I will comment on Frank Nagy.
My conversations, via many written letters between us, with Frank Nagy (prior to Fritsch's discovery of his Joe Doyle
error cards) convinced me that Frank was very discerning in discovering BB card variations. Nothing got past Frank....
he could converse on the most trivial flaws or variations on any BB card. Trust me, the "Nat'l" variation wouldn't have
eluded Frank.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I believe you, but did the founding fathers know about Nodgrass and Shappe? Those two seem to be recent discoveries. In fact, it fair to say today's collectors have found many new variations; E90-3 Hoflnan also comes to mind.

Or perhaps they were aware and paid no attention to them.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Sorry I was trying to say that maybe Russell's Doyle went unnoticed, not necessarily the Doyle variation itself. Was his collection that well known back in the day?

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Posted By: Jason L

was he public about his collection?
Perhaps he didn't share it much, or wasn't the same detail-oriented examiner of card variations as was someone like Nagy

going back in time to the era of collecting when the legends you speak of were in their collecting prime, there were some differences that could easily explain how these variations went unnoticed:
1) information was harder to obtain and travelled slower, pre-internet
2) money wasn't chasing these cards, and therefore, variations likely went unnoticed (and unrewarded with premium valuations) by many collectors that weren't motivated by profit and product differentiation.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm not certain on the two T206 typo errors, as to when they were discovered.

Speaking about Joe Doyle, it was very recent that (independently) Brian W., John W., Levi B. and I noticed that "remnant"
serif (of the "N") on this T206 card.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- when I first started collecting T206 around 1984, those variations were not known. They were introduced to the hobby somewhat later.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

According to Wikipedia,

"Russell died at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC due to complications from emphysema."

He was 12-14 years old when T206 was issued....

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Posted By: JimB

I would guess that Russell simply did not notice the Doyle. He may never have seen a second one. Since we know he collected circa 1910 and that his collection consists only of cards from that era, I think we can surmise with some certainty that he did not pursue this hobby as an adult. Is there any evidence to the contrary? He may have enjoyed the cards as an adult with nostalgia for his youth. But it does not seem like he was part of the organized hobby in any significant way. To me, it makes perfect sense that he would not notice. It is almost more surprising that the Un.of GA library did notice. They must have called in an expert when they received the gift.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

TIM

Based on my observation of Russell's 100's of duplicates (that were offered for sale earlier this year), he must of started
collecting at age 13. This translates to no earlier than 1910. All the cards of his that I saw were PIEDMONT 350's. Even
his 150 Series cards in his collection were with PIEDMONT 350 backs. And, this is consistent with the possibly of him fin-
ding a Joe Doyle error.

Richard B. Russell, Jr. was a life-long smoker, just as his father was.


JIM

Your....."I would guess that Russell simply did not notice the Doyle".....I think is a quite presumptuous.

If I recall, in his duplicate collection there was a "normal" Joe Doyle. Consider this scenario....as a 13 year old, if your Dad
handed you two Joe Doyle cards....and, one had "N.Y. NAT'L" and the other had just "N.Y."....which one would you keep ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave F

I have no idea here....in 1910 could a 13 year old buy his own pack of smokes or would his father have been buying them? I have no clue if there was a minimum age at that point to buy tobacco...I wouldn't be surprised if you could have bought them at 13 in which case it makes it cool he would have actually directly grown his own collection.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...with this statement: "I would guess that Russell simply did not notice the Doyle."

When I started collecting T206 cards, I recognized there were different advertising backs, but I really didn't care until someone told me there were people who actually collected the rare backs. I still don't have a taste for them, but can, naturally, appreciate their worth to others.

What this memory helps me with is in recalling a time when collecting was less detail-oriented. I believe that people started to really focus on the details when there were huge sums of money involved with tiny flaws in the printing process. Certainly there were always the truly hard core types that poured over every printing fart on a card. But their numbers have grown only in recent years when such attention to detail earned a potential monetary windfall.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Darren

If there was a law against minors buying tobacco back then I'm certain it would not have been strictly enforced. But I do believe there was no law--it was up to the shop owner to whom he sold.

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Posted By: Anonymous

If Cobb's father was an elected politician in Georgia State Government, it may be possible that he was able to get the ATC to print some cards up for his own distribution? I forget, is there any evidence that the ATC produced Ty Cobb brand cigarettes other than the backs of those cards (liek an ad or a pack) - which appear to me to come from the same factory as the Piedmont 350 backs - which to me does not suggest that "Ty Cobb" was an actual brand. At best, I like the inclusion of the Ty Cobb backs in the Piedmont 350 backed cigarette cartons as a promotional item hypothesis, until some more solid evidence appears.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I would like to lean to the argument that Russell simply did not pay attention to the 'NATL' variation except for the fact that this was NOT just a minor printing snafu.  This a fairly significant change to this card and if Russell had oneof each Doyle card then surely he NOTICED the difference.  He may not have cared but surely he noticed.

martyOgelvie
New York Yankee cards

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PIEDMONT 350 cards were shipped to Factory 25, 2nd District, Virginia to be inserted in PIEDMONT cigarette packs in 1910.

The Red Ty Cobb with TY COBB back was most likely printed in 1911 or 1912 and was shipped to Factory 33, 4th District,
North Carolina to be inserted in the Tin containing TY COBB Cut Plug Tobacco. Or, this card possibly found its way down to
Cobb County, Georgia.

It was a violation of Federal Law to insert a different name T-brand premium in a Cigarette pack of another T-brand..

TED Z

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Posted By: Dave F

Ted-

Just curious, why the thought they would have been shipped to Cobb County GA?

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Posted By: Dave F

"If Cobb's father was an elected politician in Georgia State Government, it may be possible that he was able to get the ATC to print some cards up for his own distribution? I forget, is there any evidence that the ATC produced Ty Cobb brand cigarettes other than the backs of those cards (liek an ad or a pack) - which appear to me to come from the same factory as the Piedmont 350 backs - which to me does not suggest that "Ty Cobb" was an actual brand. At best, I like the inclusion of the Ty Cobb backs in the Piedmont 350 backed cigarette cartons as a promotional item hypothesis, until some more solid evidence appears."


Ty Cobb's father had already been shot dead before 1910...so the possibility his father would have been able to pull some strings with the ATC doesn't hold water.

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Posted By: Dave F

Interesting read by the way for anyone not familiar with Cobb's background. It was his mother that shot and killed his father, in 1905.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Cobb

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have to disagree with you, and others, regarding whether Russell knew the difference regarding the two Joe Doyle cards.
And, here is the scenario......

Russell would have seen the Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'L (error) card first....as it was printed first. The Joe Doyle N.Y. was available
later than the error card. Having acquired the error card first, Russell put it into his T206 collection. Subsequently, he got the
normal Joe Doyle N.Y.card.
As a 13 year old, he might have discerned the difference; or, perhaps did not. But, since he already had a Joe Doyle card, he
relegated this (normal) one to his duplicate pile.

I, indeed, as a 10 year old did exactly this in 1949. I was collecting 1949 Bowman cards. I had several Phil Rizzuto cards (as
he was my neighbor in Hillside, NJ). In the Summer of '49 (I remember this as it was yesterday), I opened up a 5-cent pack
and found another Rizzuto card. But, this one had the wrong color on it than my other ones. So, I traded it....very dumb.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Ted,
I think your second scenario of him keeping the first Doyle he got and relegating all subsequent examples to the duplicate pile makes much more sense.
JimB

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Posted By: Jason Silvey

I saw this collection on display several years ago while in school at the University of Georgia. Unfortunately I did not know much about T cards at the time and don't recall seeing the Doyle but I do remember seeing the Cobb.

Jason

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,

I assume none of

Ames (Hands at Chest)
Doyle (Throwing) or
Schulte (Front View)

were to be found among the hundreds of duplicates?

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Several 100's of Piedmont 350's, but no Ames, Larry Doyle, or Schulte. If so, you would have received a phone call from me.

Here is a brief summary of his all-Piedmont 350 duplicates collection.....


Mostly cards from the 350-only series and a scattering of cards from the 150 series

Seven of the 8 cards that I refer to as the Elite Eight (from the 150 series)....no Lundgren

Approx. 60 Southern Leaguers (no Shaughnessey)

All 55 Subjects from 350/460 series were 350's


Senator Russell's original T206 set on display consists of 497 cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

A sample of the cards I bought from the Russell collection. These are all from the 150 Series; but, all have PIEDMONT 350 backs......




TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ty Cobb's father died in 1905. He could not have finagled the printing of Ty Cobb cards after he died.


Seems to me that the Ty Cobb backed Ty Cobb cards were some sort of vanity or private printing. If thousands of these cards had been made for distribution in thousands of tins of Ty Cobb tobacco, I'd think that more of them would have survived. I suspect that the ones that survive were among ones made as a sample, either at private request or in contemplation of being distributed with the tobacco. Maybe the gloss on the front was to protect the image. And maybe this all occurred just as T206 production was about to stop. So the cards never made it into general production. And they weren't part of the T206 issue... That's what I think. Also, if I had one I'd sorely want it to be in T206 so I'd have a rare back. But it isn't.

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Posted By: paulstratton

How many would have been on a sheet? It seems like an awful lot of work would have gone into creating this new back and then to just produce a sheet or two doesn't make too much sense to me.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Frank-you may want it to be a rare back but you'd have a rare card which is even better I think.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I can't speak to how many Ty Cobb backed cards were produced but I do think we can say with 100% certainty that there was more than 1 sheet of them produced (however, this only implies 2 or more sheets were produced. I could not fathom whether the number was 2 or 200 or 2,000,000).

During the last REA auction, I pointed out that the Nagy Ty Cobb backed card had a clear wetsheet transfer of the Ty Cobb back on the front:



This clearly indicates that more than 1 sheet was produced.