Interesting interviews regarding authenticity of the 4.4 mil Babe Ruth jersey

[travrosty]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio/86...y-may-21-2012/


scroll down to the bottom (May 21 interviews) - Interesting interviews by Mike Francesa with Mr. Kohler from SCP and then Dave Grob from Mears regarding the authenticity of the record breaking Babe Ruth jersey. Francesca needs a 5 hour energy I think.

Listen to the Kohler interview first as it was chronologically first.

[GKreindler]

Great post, Travis. I normally listen to WFAN on a daily basis, but wasn't around at all yesterday to do so. And of course, that happens on the one day that Mike decides to talk about this kind of stuff.

Regardless of how entertaining this was, I still miss his former partner, Chris Russo.

Graig

[Splinte1941]

It's actually frightening that Kohler's answer to Francesa's question is MEARS. In reality no one alive can guarantee Ruth ever even saw that jersey. Not MEARS, not anyone. No one.

There's no answer to the question, because there really is no answer. If that makes any sense.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by GKreindler

Great post, Travis. I normally listen to WFAN on a daily basis, but wasn't around at all yesterday to do so. And of course, that happens on the one day that Mike decides to talk about this kind of stuff.

Regardless of how entertaining this was, I still miss his former partner, Chris Russo.

Graig

The "Dog" added a lot of energy to the show.

Francesa isn't big on autographs and memorabilia. I usually try to catch an hour or two of Francesa. I missed it, too.

[Splinte1941]

The fact that Grob can't go back before 2004 as far as the jersey's whereabouts is curious at best. Who gave it to the Babe Ruth museum? Where did that person obtain it? Shouldn't that be fairly easy to ascertain? Wow wee.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

It's actually frightening that Kohler's answer to Francesa's question is MEARS. In reality no one alive can guarantee Ruth ever even saw that jersey. Not MEARS, not anyone. No one.

There's no answer to the question, because there really is no answer. If that makes any sense.

I have to politely disagree. When there are photos of players wearing jerseys I think they can (sometimes) be matched with a 100% certainty. They are like fingerprints. I don't know if there was a photo match of this jersey with Ruth wearing it or not.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have to politely disagree. When there are photos of players wearing jerseys I think they can (sometimes) be matched with a 100% certainty. They are like fingerprints. I don't know if there was a photo match of this jersey with Ruth wearing it or not.

Leon, you can't be saying that you're trusting a photograph as your fundamental piece of evidence that a jersey is authentic, are you? With all due respect, the analogy between a photograph and a fingerprint is IMHO lunacy. 100% certainty? You wouldn't bet money on it.

How does anyone know that Ruth's name wasn't stitched into another jersey?

I just can't believe that the person who spent $4.4 million on that item can sleep at night with the explanation provided by Grob. I'm sorry, I just can't.

[GKreindler]

He really did, Christopher. They were both so different and had a great dynamic together. At first, when Mike had started things on his own, he was talking about how he would have another co-host at some point, but I guess it never panned out.

He can definitely do the show himself, but sometimes, it can have a harsh edge to it.

And of course, I'm saying this out of love, because I still tune in everyday.

Graig

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

Leon, you can't be saying that you're trusting a photograph as your fundamental piece of evidence that a jersey is authentic, are you? With all due respect, the analogy between a photograph and a fingerprint is IMHO lunacy. 100% certainty? You wouldn't bet money on it.

How does anyone know that Ruth's name wasn't stitched into another jersey?

I just can't believe that the person who spent $4.4 million on that item can sleep at night with the explanation provided by Grob. I'm sorry, I just can't.

Absolutely. Not pertaining to this Ruth jersey, as I stated. I don't know if there was a photo match or not.

If there is a high res photo you can see the seams on jerseys and individual and unique patterns of threads, dirt, smudges etc.... I think anyone that doesn't understand this probably doesn't know what they are talking about.

AND THE analogy was that a jersey or mitt or hat is unique and that is similar to a fingerprint which is also unique. And yes, I would bet money on certain items being photo matched and the same.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by GKreindler

He really did, Christopher. They were both so different and had a great dynamic together. At first, when Mike had started things on his own, he was talking about how he would have another co-host at some point, but I guess it never panned out.

He can definitely do the show himself, but sometimes, it can have a harsh edge to it.

And of course, I'm saying this out of love, because I still tune in everyday.

Graig

Boy, Graig,

Wow! "Harsh edge" is a polite way of putting it.

I know Dave Kohler pretty well and I don't think that Mike ever gave him a chance to speak. He was absolutely steam rolled in this so called interview. Kohler tried to let Mike know that he is the auction house, not the authenticator.

The process questions that he asked appropriately should have gone to the authenticator from the beginning, but he was hell bent to get his answers even if the person that he was asking wasn't the right person to ask, IMHO...

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have to politely disagree. When there are photos of players wearing jerseys I think they can (sometimes) be matched with a 100% certainty. They are like fingerprints. I don't know if there was a photo match of this jersey with Ruth wearing it or not.

I have to agree with Leon maybe not 100% but photo matching is a very strong tool in identification of Jerseys. A fellow board member sent me these pics when I stated That I had a Munson Game used world series Jersey. (Thanks Brock) He was able to photo match it to games 2,5,6 of the 77 series. Reggie's 3 home run game. It might not be 100% as nothing is but it is usefull.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Leon

Absolutely. Not pertaining to this Ruth jersey, as I stated. I don't know if there was a photo match or not.

If there is a high res photo you can see the seams on jerseys and individual and unique patterns of threads, dirt, smudges etc.... I think anyone that doesn't understand this probably doesn't know what they are talking about.

AND THE analogy was that a jersey or mitt or hat is unique and that is similar to a fingerprint which is also unique. And yes, I would bet money on certain items being photo matched and the same.

Not a difficult concept Leon, but its 100% conjecture unless there's a strong identifying mark, like a tear or smudge. And even then...

I guess if I wanted to spend $4.4m on a jersey I would personally need a better explanation and more facts than what was told to Francesa in that interview. That's all. Leland's bought the jersey and they will sell it to someone who will accept MEARS as gospel and that's fine.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Boy, Graig,

Wow! "Harsh edge" is a polite way of putting it.

I know Dave Kohler pretty well and I don't think that Mike ever gave him a chance to speak. He was absolutely steam rolled in this so called interview. Kohler tried to let Mike know that he is the auction house, not the authenticator.

The process questions that he asked appropriately should have gone to the authenticator from the beginning, but he was hell bent to get his answers even if the person that he was asking wasn't the right person to ask, IMHO...

The auction house should have some idea of the "authentication" process of this jersey, since they're in the business of moving this stuff, but he was definitely steamrolled. The process explained by Grob was so underwhelming and ambiguous that I actually think Kohler did a better job by just hanging up.

[sayhey24]

Pure and simple -- knowledgable collectors will tell you that Leon is correct.

Greg

[Splinte1941]

Travis, you care to weigh in?

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by sayhey24

Pure and simple -- knowledgable collectors will tell you that Leon is correct.

Greg

Greg +1

Jake ,Knowing Josh Evans and Lelands you can bet that he didnt pony up 4.4 million dollars without doing his homework a long time ago on this Jersey!

[BigJJ]

I agree that photo matching can be reasonably definitive - however, it is not always definitive - and at times I have seen individuals stating a definitive photo match, when such match is not definitive - even putting the jersey next to the photo and saying it is definitive when it is not.
And we all know people can move insignias and buttons around on a jersey to make jerseys resemble those in pictures.
I was not an interested party to the Ruth jersey that sold, and have no knowledge as to the extent of photo matching. I also have no knowledge as to that jersey's provenance.
I can tell you in the art world, that few would buy a Renoir for about $5 million dollars, if the work had no published provenance prior to 2004 or whatever recent date. Every piece has some provenance, even if just discovered for 'what it is'. In our business, we ought to be publishing provenance with pieces more often - to the same extent as art. Particularly the big pieces.
And as with art, there will be some 'Private Collection, New York, NY, 1955-1998' listings to allow for some anonymity, but we ought to be providing a clear public record and we ought to start doing it now for future generations.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

I agree that photo matching can be reasonably definitive - however, it is not always definitive - and at times I have seen individuals stating a definitive photo match, when such match is not definitive - even putting the jersey next to the photo and saying it is definitive when it is not.
And we all know people can move insignias and buttons around on a jersey to make jerseys resemble those in pictures.
I was not an interested party to the Ruth jersey that sold, and have no knowledge as to the extent of photo matching. I also have no knowledge as to that jersey's provenance.
I can tell you in the art world, that few would buy a Renoir for about $5 million dollars, if the work had no published provenance prior to 2004 or whatever recent date. Every piece has some provenance, even if just discovered for 'what it is'. In our business, we ought to be publishing provenance with pieces more often - to the same extent as art. Particularly the big pieces.
And as with art, there will be some 'Private Collection, New York, NY, 1955-1998' listings to allow for some anonymity, but we ought to be providing a clear public record and we ought to start doing it now for future generations.

+1

It was embarrassing that Grob had to admit that Mears could not account for the whereabouts of the jersey prior to 2004. Francesa was asking pretty reasonable and simple questions and it was painful at points listening to the answers. Just incredible. Where did this thing come from? Maybe the guys at Leland's know but why not just disclose it?

If this is real, it's worthy of Cooperstown, the National Archives, and the Smithsonian. Would any of those places accept it based solely on a Mears report?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

And we all know people can move insignias and buttons around on a jersey to make jerseys resemble those in pictures.

Just a word on this. They actually put the jersey up to a light to see if there any any stitch holes present, which would show if any alterations have taken place.

[BigJJ]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Just a word on this. They actually put the jersey up to a light to see if there any any stitch holes present, which would show if any alterations have taken place.

Again I have no knowledge regarding the Ruth jersey, its level of photo matching, provenance, etc. I have no reason to believe the jersey is anything other than what was presented.

On a separate note, not certain holes cannot be closed through cleaning and drying, perhaps the hard core jersey guys could chime in.

I just think for items of such import, we ought to have a listed provenance roughly covering the life of the item.

[Bugsy]

It would be incredibly difficult to fake a jersey like this. There are so many things to consider. I took all these into account when purchasing a pre-war jersey. I'm sure there are many things I missed too. One wrong answer to any of these can be a huge red flag.

1) Is the jersey made of the correct material? Different fabric blends and weights can be pinpointed to different time periods.

2) Who was the manufacturer?

3) Does the style of the manufacturer's tagging, wash instructions, etc. match the period the jersey was supposedly used?

4) Is the jersey the correct size for the player?

5) Does the jersey have the correct lettering font on the front?

6) Is the style of the number font correct?

7) Is the lettering the correct color?

8) Is the font placement correct?

9) Is the font material correct?

10) Does the jersey have correct buttons?

11) Does the jersey have the correct number of buttons?

12) Is the button placement correct?

13) Is the pinstriping correct?

14) Are team personalizations correct (chain-stitching, etc.)

15) Does the jersey show any alterations?

16) Does the hem match period specifications?

17) What about the taper?

18) What kind of wear does it show?

19) What about the collar style?

20) What about the armpits? There are different methods of sewing the sleeves to the shirt (and sometimes even different fabrics). Even things like the placement and number of air holes in the arm pits have to be consistent with examples from the manufacturer from that period.

Provenance and photomatching can only strengthen an argument.

The nice thing about Ruth jerseys is that several have survived. It is tougher to make a comparison when something is one of a kind.

Just food for thought.

Chris

[drc]

I note that Dave Grob is one of the top jersey experts in the field, and is as ethical and detail oriented as there is in the hobby. He's also a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

I just think for items of such import, we ought to have a listed provenance roughly covering the life of the item.

Would this statement also fall in line with 40K bats? Standards should be just that no matter what the item.

[BigJJ]

Yes.
Sometimes it is difficult given relevant parties.
But it would be less difficult if there was general recognition among the auction houses - and buyers - that 'important' pieces ought to be accompanied by provenance, in a manner similar to art. for all 'important' items, say values of 20k+? I do not know how others would define 'important' items. Or whether other opinion would be for all items, or items with values of $1500+, and distinctions in value between cards and memorabilia, say cards with values of 50k+?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Boy, Graig,

Wow! "Harsh edge" is a polite way of putting it.

I know Dave Kohler pretty well and I don't think that Mike ever gave him a chance to speak. He was absolutely steam rolled in this so called interview. Kohler tried to let Mike know that he is the auction house, not the authenticator.

The process questions that he asked appropriately should have gone to the authenticator from the beginning, but he was hell bent to get his answers even if the person that he was asking wasn't the right person to ask, IMHO...

+1

The rude and abraisive Francesa never even allowed Kohler to answer, and cut him off every single time. His questions/accusations should have been directed to Mears (or "Mirrors", as he irritatingly pronounced it) from the beginning. I don't blame Kohler for hanging up, and give him credit for lasting as long as he did...

At least Grob was "permitted" a chance to speak. That conversation at least fit the description of an "interview", as opposed to the "railroading" that Kohler was subjected to. I suppose I'm not a fan of "The Fan" (or at least this overly aggressive interview style). But interesting stuff... thanks for posting the interviews!

[Fuddjcal]

after listing to the interview the Oh...."That's what they do"...."They don't know the process...."ask someone else". "Ask Mears".

Mike did only ask him 1 question. The Auction house "does take it on blind word".

Let's ask "Mirrors". "It's too late to ask".

He never did give an answer. I wouldnt touch an item like that for .10 cents. Enjoy your FAKE 4.4 million dollar jersey!!!!.

That auction house is no better than the ones you find on Auction Zip......"Ask Morales".

hanging up only makes him seem like he knew nothing about the process.. Thank for posting the interview. It definitely does nothing for the authenticity of the item, when the auction house knows NOTHING about the authentication process of a 4.4 million dollar item it is SICKENING! I thought it was a fake when I saw the auction go down and after listening to the boob, I agree with my first thought. PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

It would be incredibly difficult to fake a jersey like this. There are so many things to consider. I took all these into account when purchasing a pre-war jersey. I'm sure there are many things I missed too. One wrong answer to any of these can be a huge red flag.

1) Is the jersey made of the correct material? Different fabric blends and weights can be pinpointed to different time periods.

2) Who was the manufacturer?

3) Does the style of the manufacturer's tagging, wash instructions, etc. match the period the jersey was supposedly used?

4) Is the jersey the correct size for the player?

5) Does the jersey have the correct lettering font on the front?

6) Is the style of the number font correct?

7) Is the lettering the correct color?

8) Is the font placement correct?

9) Is the font material correct?

10) Does the jersey have correct buttons?

11) Does the jersey have the correct number of buttons?

12) Is the button placement correct?

13) Is the pinstriping correct?

14) Are team personalizations correct (chain-stitching, etc.)

15) Does the jersey show any alterations?

16) Does the hem match period specifications?

17) What about the taper?

18) What kind of wear does it show?

19) What about the collar style?

20) What about the armpits? There are different methods of sewing the sleeves to the shirt (and sometimes even different fabrics). Even things like the placement and number of air holes in the arm pits have to be consistent with examples from the manufacturer from that period.

Provenance and photomatching can only strengthen an argument.

The nice thing about Ruth jerseys is that several have survived. It is tougher to make a comparison when something is one of a kind.

Just food for thought.

Chris

How about he answered like this instead of "ask Mears". What an idiot.

[imacgreg]

My only expertise in this area is a healthy cynicism about human nature. Given the sums of money involved, I would think a sophisticated forger would work the photo match process in reverse. That is, use a period photo and the available information about labelling and materials to doctor up a uniform with the criteria Bugsy listed above in mind. Even if you just wanted to produce a generic 20's Yankees jersey, you could consult the picture to determine lettering size and style, button placement, etc.. Having gone to that much trouble, why not add an additional $4 million to the price tag by reproducing a sleeve repair and mustard stain that are specific to a uniform in a Babe Ruth photograph?

Let's face it, if a 14th century forger still has experts arguing over the provenance of Jesus's last jersey, what chance is there against a 21st century "fabric-ator"?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by drc

I note that Dave Grob is one of the top jersey experts in the field, and is as ethical and detail oriented as there is in the hobby. He's also a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel.

and Chris Morales is a former secret service agent.....this means nothing.

I'm sure Dave Grob is a top expert and is ethical though. It's my experience in this hobby to EXPECT it to be FAKE first, then verify. Even if Dave says so.... "Ask Mears... it too late" does not give me much faith in the project...... and another thing.....

I have a wool suit from Nordstrom's that the moths got to after 2 years. This Jersey just "shows up" in 2004. I have a clear picture of that. it must be polyester. I'm sure it was tucked away and forgotten in grandmas ceder chest and bought at an estate sale.

[travrosty]

If only JSA did jerseys THEN I would feel 100% comfortable with this shirt.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If only JSA did jerseys THEN I would feel 100% comfortable with this shirt.

not me, I'd want to "ask Mears" and get a dual Certificate from PSA as well. Then I'd know it was real.....

seriously with all joking aside, The "ask Mears" line and "it's too late", do not come off anywhere near credible, reliable or professional when you've just sold a 4.4 million dollar item IMHO.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If only JSA did jerseys THEN I would feel 100% comfortable with this shirt.

Love it.

Hauls of Shame has provided some unsubstantiated provenance to this jersey based on sources. Why is this so secretive?

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

not me, I'd want to "ask Mears" and get a dual Certificate from PSA as well. Then I'd know it was real.....

seriously with all joking aside, The "ask Mears" line and "it's too late", do not come off anywhere near credible, reliable or professional when you've just sold a 4.4 million dollar item IMHO.

Agreed. As I said previously, if the auction house peddling the item doesn't have some understanding of the authentication process they shouldn't be in the business.

[drc]

My guess is this thread involves mostly people who know little about game used jerseys. I don't know much about the area either, but I haven't offered an opinion about the jersey's authenticity.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by drc

My guess is this thread involves mostly people who know little about game used jerseys. I don't know much about the area either, but I haven't offered an opinion about the jersey's authenticity.

Neither have I. I don't think anyone has said the jersey is fake. I'm really just questioning the process by which the jersey has been authenticated. Since no one alive can guarantee its authenticity, its a natural debate.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

Love it.

Hauls of Shame has provided some unsubstantiated provenance to this jersey based on sources. Why is this so secretive?

how did haulsofshame find out something about its provenance, and the auction house couldn't?

[drc]

In the fine art world, documentation of provenance including sales records, is in part for authentication purposes and in part to establish ownership. Some expensive paintings and such are stolen, and you don't want to purchase something to later find out you aren't the legal owner. In some countries in Europe documentation of provenance for expensive art is required by law because of the issue of stolen art.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

how did haulsofshame find out something about its provenance, and the auction house couldn't?

It's on the website...

"According to sources..."

I guess a private collector allowed the jersey to be displayed at the museum, the collector died while it was still there, and it was then sold by the family to another private collector...

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

It's on the website...

"According to sources..."

I guess a private collector allowed the jersey to be displayed at the museum, the collector died while it was still there, and it was then sold by the family to another private collector...

...and we know the museum has never displayed bogus stuff before!

[drc]

I'm surprised PSA/DNA doesn't authenticate uniforms. The already authenticate bats.

[thecatspajamas]

Personally, I would have enjoyed hearing more about the authentication process and less of the pressing for a soundbyte that matched the interviewer's predetermined outcome of the conversation. Frankly, I'm not surprised the interviews were conducted over the phone, as many a fist fight has broken out under less hostile conditions.

If the kind of badgering he was engaging in is what others have politely referred to as "aggressive interviewing," then mark me down for preferring the old-fashioned "conversational interviewing." I don't listen to a lot of sports radio, but if this is indicative of what I'm missing, I'm not likely to change that habit. Yeesh.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Personally, I would have enjoyed hearing more about the authentication process and less of the pressing for a soundbyte that matched the interviewer's predetermined outcome of the conversation. Frankly, I'm not surprised the interviews were conducted over the phone, as many a fist fight has broken out under less hostile conditions.

If the kind of badgering he was engaging in is what others have politely referred to as "aggressive interviewing," then mark me down for preferring the old-fashioned "conversational interviewing." I don't listen to a lot of sports radio, but if this is indicative of what I'm missing, I'm not likely to change that habit. Yeesh.

+1

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by drc

I'm surprised PSA/DNA doesn't authenticate uniforms. The already authenticate bats.

If there is a buck in it, I'm sure that PSA/DNA would love to get a taste of it...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Personally, I would have enjoyed hearing more about the authentication process and less of the pressing for a soundbyte that matched the interviewer's predetermined outcome of the conversation. Frankly, I'm not surprised the interviews were conducted over the phone, as many a fist fight has broken out under less hostile conditions.

If the kind of badgering he was engaging in is what others have politely referred to as "aggressive interviewing," then mark me down for preferring the old-fashioned "conversational interviewing." I don't listen to a lot of sports radio, but if this is indicative of what I'm missing, I'm not likely to change that habit. Yeesh.

Well worded... completely agree about the pre-determined outcome. Why even bother with the formality of a so-called interview? Maybe they think they require a more agressive style and shock value in that particular radio market. Not my cup of tea either...

Regarding PSA... I noticed that they're now doing game-used Gloves (in addition to Bats). Just got an email from John Taube, to that effect. I bet it's just a matter of months before they transition into Jersey/Uniform authentication as well.