T205 Graham discussion

A while back I posted that there was 2 different types of T205 Graham Signature variations. One is a "Blue Signature on front" variation and the other is "Black Signature on front" variation. Since both of these can be found on Piedmont and Sweet Caporal as well as some others this would fall into the actual variation "CLAUSE" right? There seems to be no lack of either but the Black Signature would be the scarcer of the 2 since the blue is almost on all known backs and the black is only on a few. There is no premium added to either since they both sell at the same price but I feel as time goes the blue signature may carry a very small premium since there are less of them.

I am looking for input on this subject. Would a nice write up with pics of the cards F/B be enough for SGC, SCD, PSA to recognize? I am just wondering because they did the Matty Cycle error but never heard why they did finally recognize it. Hope to hear some good thoughts/opinions on this.



a few links and pics. only the pics are/were mine


Graham Blue Pied. Fact. 25 courtesy of Tim/abravefan:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-D...2520Graham.jpg

Graham Blue PB Fact. 6:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T205-GEORGE-...#ht_2356wt_956

Graham Black Pied. 25:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-T205-Pi...#ht_720wt_1189

The pics are of a Sweet Cap Fact 42, Broadleaf Olive green Fact. 25, American Beauty Black Fact. 42, and Cycle Fact.25.

[Wite3]

Still not convinced especially since your two links show that the sig. Is black on pied. 25...still have not seen a piedmont 25 blue scan yet...I would consider this a variation like cycle Matty...

Btw...do people consider the different m or e cards(like globe, Indianapolis brewing, sporting news, etc.) which use the same format, same pics, but different advertising as different sets or variations? I view the Matty cycle just like this..not a variation but a different card set or subset with different advertising.

Joshua

[familytoad]

Andrew,
I can clearly remember passing on the first T205 Graham I saw that had the blue signature...I thought it was overwritten or traced by some kid with blue pen. That was probably 17-18 years ago, Albany NY card show. I was very early into the T205 set.
It took me a little while to see another in person (I wasn't on eBay... if it even existed then) and then I noticed it again...and looked closer to determine that it was a non-altered card. I don't have a scan handy, but when I do...I'll post here.
So I have had the Graham a long time, meaning I passed at looking for more of them over the years. In fact I probably don't even have a black-ink version...but maybe.
I do think this is a legitimate variation, and should be in the "master set".

FWIW, I'm less fond of having the Cycle Back Mathewson listed, as that card only exists with one back type (as you point out) and looks like a simple misprint rather than a true unique version. What I mean is...like say, the Collins/Bresnahan/Chase/Wiltse pose variations or the different signature lines (Crandall, Graham, Leifield)

Here's another opportunity to promote my proposed new website
damnyoukaiserwilhelm.com

[Matt]

The difference between this and the 37-1 Matty (and different add backs) is that with the 37-1 Matty, there is clearly a different printing text used for the non-advertising part of the back. It's as if a player had his team listed as Philadelphia on one card and Pittsburgh on another; regardless of if such a variation corresponded to a certain advertising back or not, it is categorically different than something like this Graham printing issue, which could simply because by a different mixing of the inks.

Piedmont Fact. 25 Blue Signature on front link fixed.

This would make for a variation then. There is a Piedmont Fact 25 for both Blue and Black, and would say the Blue Signature on front is of lesser quantity.

[Wite3]

Andrew...now I see that there are two versions for the piedmont and I would consider this a variation. Thanks for fixing the link.

Joshua

[steve B]

Cool! a T205 thread I can contribute to. (I have maybe 20 of them and haven't studied them much. )

My Graham is P25 black sig.

Some color differences can be from the ink mixing, but black was nearly always done with various forms of carbon as the pigment,(For printing inks ca 1911) and it just doesn't fade and didn't need to be mixed.

Steve B

So here is the million dollar question then. Should it be only the Piedmont Fact 25 Blue Signature on front or should each card be labeled as such with the appropriate signature color and the emphasis being that Pied fact. 25 Blue being the hardest. I would think that Graham Blue Signature on front for only the Piedmont Fact 25 would be a good label. Any thoughts?


Even though the Black signature is far less plentiful on the Graham FB combos the Blue Signature Piedmont Fact 25 will be the the rarer of the 2. There can at anytime be 5 to 1 Black to blue Piedmont 25. I have only seen a few over the past few months and think there will be far less now.

BTW if anyone has any to show it would be nice to possibly see what the ratio we as board members may have. I also believe that the sweet caporal reds have the same blue and black signature variation

[dherm360]

I have a Piedmont 25 with Black Sig

Please if any of you have any others not shown especially the Sweet Caporal backs post them. Or what ever you have for that matter for a better count on blue to black Pied 25

[nebboy]

I know I have a black and a blue version, I 'll have to get back to you on the backs. And yes as soon as I found that there were diffrent version I added each to my collection for a own master set.. John - Nebboy

[T205Guy]

Hi,

I thought I would throw my collection of Grahams into the mix. I have the following cards:

BLUE signatures: American Beauty, Broad Leaf (Olive), Drum, Honest Long Cut, Piedmont (F25), Polar Bear, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal.

BLACK signatures: Cycle and CUBS Variation with Hassan (F649).

Looks like we need a Master checklist...

Ed

[frankbmd]

Sweet Cap - Blue Sig on my only Graham

Ed you need the Pied 25. Black. You have the toughest of them so far being the Pied 25 Blue signature. Nice run there BTW.
Does anyone have a Black Sweet cap back? Does it exist? So far only the Pied 25 has both Black and Blue signatures. Thanks to those that have contributed so far. Hope we see more of these soon.

[Jantz]

Andrew

Not sure if you're looking to purchase another Graham Piedmont 25 Blue Sig, but I'll PM you the details just incase.


Jantz

Originally Posted by Jantz

Andrew

Not sure if you're looking to purchase another Graham Piedmont 25 Blue Sig, but I'll PM you the details just incase.


Jantz

Thanks Jantz.

[T205Guy]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Ed you need the Pied 25. Black. You have the toughest of them so far being the Pied 25 Blue signature. Nice run there BTW.
Does anyone have a Black Sweet cap back? Does it exist? So far only the Pied 25 has both Black and Blue signatures. Thanks to those that have contributed so far. Hope we see more of these soon.

Andrew - Thanks - I seem to remember from an old post that you thought a "Cycle" Blue Signature might exist. I was just wondering if this might be a Blue/Black combo as well? Also does anyone have a HLC or Soveriegn "Black" Signature?

Originally Posted by T205Guy

Andrew - Thanks - I seem to remember from an old post that you thought a "Cycle" Blue Signature might exist. I was just wondering if this might be a Blue/Black combo as well? Also does anyone have a HLC or Soveriegn "Black" Signature?

I have not confirmed it yet. Only the Pied 25. I am pretty sure the SC has them also. If not then it makes it a Very tough variation.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Still not convinced especially since your two links show that the sig. Is black on pied. 25...still have not seen a piedmont 25 blue scan yet...I would consider this a variation like cycle Matty...

Btw...do people consider the different m or e cards(like globe, Indianapolis brewing, sporting news, etc.) which use the same format, same pics, but different advertising as different sets or variations? I view the Matty cycle just like this..not a variation but a different card set or subset with different advertising.

Joshua

I will defer to your reasoning on this Piedmont color issue....but in answer to the other part....
.
.
For me, the M101-4/5 ad backs are different sets, can be collected that way, but are categorized according to the American Card Catalog numbering scheme. Several of the ads have their own designation but most don't.

Just wanted to see if anyone has added anymore to their collection or may have came across something else. Made a call to SGC and never got a response. Not suprised but I thought they would atleast make a return call.

Also to add I would say this card should be added to the basic set list since it is not an error card. Any thoughts on this?