What If...1909 T206 Babe Ruth...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

What if Babe Ruth were to have played in the deadball era (and were to be the same legend, same statistics, drank the same beer and hot dog :P etc.) and had a 1909-11 T206 card.

What do you think the demand and value would be of that card?

I think after the Big 4, it's next in line for most valuable, with the highest demand over the Cobbs potentially...

[Cardboard Junkie]

Interesting, I think a t206 Babe Ruth card would be right under the big four. Maybe even higher priced than a couple of them. Backs too would be interesting, and also if different poses/portraits were used. I would like to place my order for a T-206 Babe Ruth with a Ty Cobb back! Ha ha!
I also think about 52 Topps. What if Paige or Ford or Stengal were in that set? Paige as a hi # would probably be crazy priced. JMO Aloha, Dave.

[dstraate]

Yeah, assuming it had a typical print run, it would probably rate above Cobb but below the Big 4.

I think a horizontal card with the Babe "calling his shot" may well be the coolest card in the set.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Yea Ruth under the big four, different poses, maybe a "Ruth" back, would be unreal. Calling his shot would be epic!

Paige in 52 Topps would be insane!

[vintagecpa]

Great thread. I would imagine if you have 4 Ruth poses, they would sell for about double to triple what the Cobb sells for in similar condition. The 1933 Goudey is probably a good benchmark. Obviously, rare backs would sell for similar multiples as you see with the T206 Cobb.

Assuming the card would be considered his rookie, and having a colored card with Ruth as a Pitcher for the Red Sox would create a card in high demand. Now that I think of it, you might have a similar dynamic happening with the T206 Ruth that you see with the 1952 Mantle. Despite the huge number of cards available, the demand from the non-T206 collecting public might drive the price of the card to obscene levels.

[Runscott]

Someone should dress up a Freeman T206 to create a Ruth.

I did a Speaker portrait T206 once - have to look around and find it.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Yea Ruth in a Sox uni pitching-pose would be THE most sought after card in the hobby EVER!

[zljones]

I think the value would depend on the rarity. I would guess that is would be worth like $50,000 if there were as many as your typical cards in T206 but if it was rare like the Demmitt card it would be worth like $200,000k plus, but if it was as rare as the Wagner card it would probably be the most valuable card ever and beat out the wagner card. I think we would have then seen a 5 million dollar card if that was the case

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Someone should dress up a Freeman T206 to create a Ruth.

It would look something like this. I think it could be a pretty good match!

[Bosox Blair]

I realize this is your hypothetical, and you can do what you want with it, but I have often thought what if there was a 1915 CJ Babe Ruth in a Red Sox uni...because that actually could have happened...

I'm sure it would sell for more than anyone, including Shoeless Joe, in the set.

Cheers,
Blair

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

I realize this is your hypothetical, and you can do what you want with it, but I have often thought what if there was a 1915 CJ Babe Ruth in a Red Sox uni...because that actually could have happened...

I'm sure it would sell for more than anyone, including Shoeless Joe, in the set.

Cheers,
Blair

The card would be pretty cool, if it had a simlar horizontal pitching pose like the 1914 CJ Matty.

Tony

[glchen]

Here's a picture of a nice Cracker Jack Ruth that someone mocked up. From this webpage: Link

[HOF Auto Rookies]

those are some great and interesting "potential" images. yes ruth in that '15 set would be pretty increbile...who was the other big name hof'er that was left out of the t206? jackson and wood?

[ullmandds]

I like the idea/thought of a CJ Ruth as this is potentially feasible...but to consider a t206 Ruth...is silly to me. What if it wasn't Honus Wagner depicted on the most coveted T206...what if it were a unicorn? Then would little girls be interested in collecting T206?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I like the idea/thought of a CJ Ruth as this is potentially feasible...but to consider a t206 Ruth...is silly to me. What if it wasn't Honus Wagner depicted on the most coveted T206...what if it were a unicorn? Then would little girls be interested in collecting T206?

Peter, I'm just quoting you in case you put down your gin and decide to edit this post

Just kidding - thanks for the laugh on an otherwise dreary day!

[ullmandds]

I'm glad I could inject some comic relief...fairy dust all around!

[CobbSpikedMe]

My first thought regarding Ruth playing in the deadball era and having a T206 was that he wouldn't have been the homerun machine that he was after the deadball era. He came along right when the ball was getting "juiced" and he fit right in as a power hitter. I have a feeling he wouldn't have been so huge if he was in the deadball era and Cobb would've easily eclipsed him in popularity.

Just my thoughts. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Maybe I'm way off?

Thanks,

AndyH

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

My first thought regarding Ruth playing in the deadball era and having a T206 was that he wouldn't have been the homerun machine that he was after the deadball era. He came along right when the ball was getting "juiced" and he fit right in as a power hitter. I have a feeling he wouldn't have been so huge if he was in the deadball era and Cobb would've easily eclipsed him in popularity.

My guess is that at the very least he would have been a HOF pitcher in the deadball era...he was off to a great start...check out his pitching stats from 1915-17 (in the dead ball era).

Cheers,
Blair

[zljones]

Wasn't the dead ball era from 1900-1920, meaning Babe Ruth actually did play in the later years of the dead ball era?

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by zljones

Wasn't the dead ball era from 1900-1920, meaning Babe Ruth actually did play in the later years of the dead ball era?

Yes. But his breakout power season was 1920. From that point forward, his numbers look a lot more like the numbers of elite modern power hitters.

[Runscott]

I think Ruth would have done okay if he had started his career earlier. Here are the 1919 and 1920 HR leaders. Ruth seemed to be a bit ahead of the other guys:

edited to add: his HR's per AB weren't so great before then, but he was concentrating on pitching.

1: Babe Ruth (29)
2: Gavvy Cravath (12)
3: George Sisler (10)
4: Benny Kauff (10)
5: Tilly Walker (10)
6: Frank Baker (10)
7: Elmer Smith (9)
8: Cy Williams (9)
9: George Burns (8)
10: Rogers Hornsby (8)
11: Harry Heilmann (8)
12: Wally Pipp (7)
13: Happy Felsch (7)
14: Joe Jackson (7)
15: Larry Doyle (7)
16: Roger Peckinpaugh (7)
17: Duffy Lewis (7)
18: Ping Bodie (6)
19: Jack Tobin (6)
20: Mike Menosky (6)

and 1920:

1: Babe Ruth (54)
2: George Sisler (19)
3: Tilly Walker (17)
4: Cy Williams (15)
5: Happy Felsch (14)
6: Irish Meusel (14)
7: Elmer Smith (12)
8: Joe Jackson (12)
9: Bob Meusel (11)
10: Bobby Veach (11)
11: George Kelly (11)
12: Aaron Ward (11)
13: Wally Pipp (11)
14: Ken Williams (10)
15: Austin McHenry (10)
16: Dave Robertson (10)
17: Braggo Roth (9)
18: Casey Stengel (9)
19: Baby Doll Jacobson (9)
20: Harry Heilmann (9)

[vintagerookies51]

I've always thought about a 1915 CJ Ruth too... it's more realistic because he actually played then, it was from a major sought-after set and it would be his rookie card. That would go for a lot of money

[CobbSpikedMe]

Good point Blair. He was a good pitcher earlier on in his career and may have excelled in that capacity if he played exclusively in the deadball era. My thoughts were specifically based on that caveat.

Home runs were so scarce that Frank Baker earned the moniker of "Home Run" Baker while even he had only 96 career home runs.

Thanks,

AndyH

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

What if Babe Ruth were to have played in the deadball era (and were to be the same legend, same statistics, drank the same beer and hot dog :P etc.) and had a 1909-11 T206 card.

If Ruth played during the same era as the prominent T206 players, and was included in the set, his value would be among the players of equal comparison but wouldn't command an absurd premium. His card would more than likely fall in line with Cobb, Johnson and Mathewson based on it's availability.

Wagner, Plank, Doyle N.Y. Nat'l and Magie's value are all due to their scarcity in relation to other cards in a highly collectable set. If Ruth were included, and short printed for some reason, than his card may have an excessive premium based on it's scarcity and player notoriety. Otherwise he would be a top tier HOF'er and not command much more if any than the other notable players of equal stature in the set.

Had Wagner and Plank not been short printed and produced in common numbers they may bring a slight premium over Cobb but not much.

[benchod]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

If Ruth played during the same era as the prominent T206 players, and was included in the set, his value would be among the players of equal comparison but wouldn't command an absurd premium. His card would more than likely fall in line with Cobb, Johnson and Mathewson based on it's availability.

Wagner, Plank, Doyle N.Y. Nat'l and Magie's value are all due to their scarcity in relation to other cards in a highly collectable set. If Ruth were included, and short printed for some reason, than his card may have an excessive premium based on it's scarcity and player notoriety. Otherwise he would be a top tier HOF'er and not command much more if any than the other notable players of equal stature in the set.

Had Wagner and Plank not been short printed and produced in common numbers they may bring a slight premium over Cobb but not much.

Well Tim,
I disagree with just about everything you wrote.
If the T206 was Ruth's rookie card I think it would be on par or exceed the value of the Plank and be behind only the Wagner and Doyle in terms of value. Heck the M101-4/5 Ruth is quickly catching up to the Plank, it's readily available and it's from a far less popular set. The Ruth would dwarf the Mathewson, Johnson , Young etc.

Also if all the cards were produced in equal quantities Cobb would sell for more than Wagner and Plank not the other way around
Jut my two cents on this hypothetical what if.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by benchod

Also if all the cards were produced in equal quantities Cobb would sell for more than Wagner and Plank not the other way around
Jut my two cents on this hypothetical what if.

Plank would sell for less, but I would think there would be more demand for the Wagner. I'm assuming there would be more variations than just one portrait, but if he only had one card it would command more than any of the Cobbs. If he had four variations like the t206 Cobb, then it might be a bit even.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by benchod

If the T206 was Ruth's rookie card...

I didn't base any of my speculation on a Ruth T206 being his rookie card. I considered the possibilities based on the card being as readily available as other T206 of HOF'ers. If that were the case I don't believe a Ruth T206 would sell for ten of thousands of dollars.

If other speculative parameters are considered, rookie card, short print, etc, the skies the limit on what a T206 Ruth would sell for.

The great thing about speculation is nobodies wrong.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by benchod

Heck the M101-4/5 Ruth is quickly catching up to the Plank, it's readily available and it's from a far less popular set."

If there was a T206 Ruth, so many different variables would factor into its price. If there were four of them, printed as often as the four Cobbs were -- and in particular the red Cobb was -- then I have to agree that it would be worth a similar price to Cobb, maybe a touch more.

Comparing the M101-4/5 Ruth to the T206 Plank is apples and oranges. You'd have to tell me the total numbers extant. My guess is that Ruth would be more prevalent, but not nearly as prevalent as if he would have been printed as often as all four T206 Cobbs. For instance, it would not surprise me if the M101-4/5 Ruth had over 100 more in existence than the T206 Plank and still commanded a comparable price (that's supply and demand, after all). But, if there were as many M101-4/5 Ruths as T206 Cobbs, I think you'd see the value of those Ruths come way down (because supply would closer match demand).