How many t206 cards exist in a master set????

[forazzurri2axz]

probably been posted before, but...................

thanks bill

[Abravefan11]

My best educated estimate at this time would be between 5400 and 5500.

[rp12367]

There was an article in Beckett Vintage Sept. 2002 that put it at 7000. Not sure how accurate that number truly is though. The article was written by Doug Allen.

[Brian Weisner]

I would tend to agree with Tim.... 5400-5500 is about right..... I think we will have a really good number in the next 2-3 years...

Be well Brian

[tonyo]

Bill Browns Super Set Spreadsheet puts it at 6687 (if I'm reading it correctly) as of April 2010

[Mikehealer]

Hi Tony, I believe that the 6600 number is a theoretical/possible number and not an actual confirmed count.

[tedzan]

The theoretical permutations of The Monster might be as high as 7000; however, when you consider the the numerous NO-PRINTS
associated with each of the tobacco brands......5000 to 5500 cards realistically make up a master set.

Here are some examples......

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 theoretically could include 103 cards....but, only 75 were printed.

BROAD LEAF 460 theoretically could include 63 cards....however, only 27 have been confirmed to date (and there is a good likelihood
that most of the remaining cards are NO-PRINTS).

RED HINDU theoretically could include 109 cards....but, only 40 have been confirmed to date (and there is a good likelihood that most
of the remaining cards are NO-PRINTS).

An entire SOVEREIGN sub-set theoretically could include 470 cards......however, only 402 different subjects make up this sub-set (68
subjects are NO-PRINTS).

You can go thru each of the T206 brands and there will be varying numbers of NO-PRINTS.

The PIEDMONT brand is the only T206 brand in which all 522 subjects were printed.


TED Z

[thescooper]

WOW with only 12 I have a loooooooooooooong way to go

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Hi Tony, I believe that the 6600 number is a theoretical/possible number and not an actual confirmed count.

I'm relatively new to this (2 years). I've read most of the t206 threads in the last 2 years and admittedly haven't wrapped my head totally around many of them. But, isn't the theoretical number what Bill was asking?


Also, Ted are all of the NO-PRINTS considered no-prints only because they haven't been found (yet) or are there other tangible reasons that they are considered theoretical possibilities, yet were in fact never printed?

[Abravefan11]

Tony - When comparing lists of confirmed front/back examples distinct patterns emerge that are strong evidence as to how the cards were grouped and printed. Once we understand this information we should know what is possible and what is not and can identify the no prints.

I have to disagree with Ted and say that new Red Hindu and Broad Leaf 460 subjects will be confirmed. Just in the last year or so there have been confirmations of Uzit, Brown Lenox, Old Mill and Tolstoi that were previously unknown. And based on the information we have Broad Leaf 460 and Red Hindu were printed with other subjects that have yet to be confirmed and I do believe in time more will show up.

What we aren't far from I believe is knowing which combinations should show up. As Brian said we may be a couple more years figuring that information out but I think we're as close as we've ever been.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by tonyo

But, isn't the theoretical number what Bill was asking?

Hi Tony, you may be correct, I read it as how many do exist.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Ted are all of the NO-PRINTS considered no-prints only because they haven't been found (yet) or are there other tangible reasons that they are considered theoretical possibilities, yet were in fact never printed?

Tony

The T206 NO-PRINTS that I'm referring to are for brands such as AMERICAN BEAUTY, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) are virtually known.
You can collect T206's till beyond the year 2111, and you will not find these NO-PRINTS. Elaborating on the SWEET CAPORAL example......

The 2nd most available T206 brand (next to PIEDMONT) is the SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30). It comprises of 469 different subjects and the NO-PRINTS are..........

Ray Demmitt (St Louis American)
Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l (error)
Red Kleinow (Boston)
Carl Lundgren (Cubs)
Sherry Magie (error)
Bill O'Hara (St. Louis Nat'l)
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston)
and,
all the 48 - Southern League cards.

One of the puzzling factors in collecting The Monster (or any of its sub-sets) is determining which front/back combinations exist and which were never printed.

We have discovered certain rules that apply to the various Series which enormously help us to determine which front/back combinations exist as a function of
a given T-brand.

But, new cards of the real tough brands like DRUM, red HINDU, LENOX, etc. are still surfacing....as two recent DRUM finds in the St. Louis area have revealed.


TED Z

[tonyo]

Thanks for the responses Tim, Mike, and Ted.

Puzzling is a good descriptive word. Reminds me of one of my favorite t206 thread quotes from Barry A :

It is an amazingly shrewd adversary,yet a most intriguing friend.
Forgive my anthropomorphism.

[Abravefan11]

Regarding the Sweet Caporal Factory 30 group, it is true that 469 subjects can be found with one of the three possible Factory 30 Sweet Cap backs but many can be found with two. Also there are a number that can not be found with any Factory 30 back but many more that are no prints within a specific back group.

The Sweet Caporal Factory 30 master list totals 609 front/back combinations.

[White Borders]

One of the rules referred to above applies to 350-460 subjects (excluding the six superprints).

If found with a Broad Leaf 460 back, it should also be found with a Red Hindu back, and vice versa. But if found with either of these backs, it shouldn't be found with either an American Beauty 460 back or an Uzit back.

This mutuality / exclusivity also works the other way around, too.

If found with an AB460 back, it should also be found with an Uzit back, and vice versa. But if found with either of these backs, it shouldn't be found with either an BL460 back or a Red Hindu back.

Since, if memory serves me, there are 56 non-superprint 350-460 subjects, 112 possible backs should automatically be eliminated.

----------

A couple years ago I put together a Polar Bear subset.

Cards with Polar Bear backs can be found for the 350-Only, 350-460, 350-460 superprints, and 460-Only subjects. I think if you total up all these cards, it comes out to be about 317 that could potentially have Polar Bear backs.

However, I only found 250 cards with Polar Bear backs. Surveys ran by Ted Z and others, along with searches I've done, have failed to uncover any additional cards with Polar Bear backs. So, there's most likely 67 Polar Bear no-prints.

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For the Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 backs, all six 350-460 superprints have been found with this back, some of the 460-Only subjects have been found with this back, and all but one 350-460 subject have been found with the P42 back. The one 350-460 subject that has never been found with this back is Tinker Bat Off. I strongly believe that it will one day turn up with a P42 back. Of course, it could also be one of those weird rule breakers and was never printed with a P42 back.

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The examples above are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to determining how many different T206 front/back combinations exist.

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Finally, when looking at surveys, keep in mind that they were done by humans and are susceptible to human error. Consider how easy it would be for someone to accidentally report that they have a Harry Davis, Davis on Front with a Sweet Cap 350 Factory 25 reverse, when they really meant Harry Davis, H. Davis on Front.

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So how many T206 cards are in a master set? Well, I'm up to 1512 different front/back combos, so I know there's at least that many


Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

[Mikehealer]

Wow Craig, 1512 different front/back combos, very impressive.