PM1 Ornate Pin player identification

[dstudeba]

I am trying to identify this player on an Ornate Frame which is believed to have come out in 1915. A friend noticed the W on the sleeve which matches the Washington uniform of the time. He thought it could be Sam Rice which would be great, but Rice payed in only a few games that year. Here are some pictures.



Here is their position roster (all of these guys are righthanded)

C John Henry (94)
1B Chick Gandil (134)
2B Eddie Foster (75)
3B Eddie Foster (79)
SS George McBride (146)
LF Howie Shanks (75)
CF Clyde Milan (151)
RF Danny Moeller (95)

[bigtrain]

I was the underbidder on this item. I do think it resembles Rice but it is hard to say for sure.

[nolemmings]

I think it looks like Gandil. Here is Chick's 1916 card for comparison:

But I'm no expert. Here is Foster for comparison:

[nolemmings]

FWIW, I don't think it looks like Milan, McBride or Shanks:

[nolemmings]

[nolemmings]

[nolemmings]

[IMG][/IMG]

[nolemmings]

I don't see a resemblance--also Sam's 4 games for the Sens that year were all on the mound, and yours would be an odd pose for a pitcher:

[nolemmings]

[dstudeba]

Wow Todd, thanks for all the scans! The big checkbones seem to resemble Gandil, but I am so bad at identification even with all of the ear tutorials that we have on here.

[docpatlv]

dstudeba,

Can you post a pic of the whole pin? I have a pic of the same player (in worse condition) that I had listed as "Unidentified" so at least we know that it is one of at least two out there.

Mike

[dstudeba]

Here you go Mike.

[docpatlv]

Thanks Dan,

You might want to try contacting Rhett Y. He seems to be pretty good at ID'ing players. Also, I think Tom B. used to have a good number of these, but then sold them. Good luck and nice pin...these little guys are tough. Was it an e-bay purchase?

Mike

[JLange]

Sam Rice is the only one pictured so far whose socks match those on the person on the pin!

[nolemmings]

In reviewing Okkonen's work on uniforms, Washington did not wear those socks until 1917, and that year, they wore a distinctive US shield on the left breast in support of the War effort. Hard to say whether your pin shows a shield in light of that pose. Also, the player on your pin seems to have a logo on his cap, which Washington did not don until 1916. By 1918 the shield was gone and the socks remained three striped, so this pin may be from well after 1915--maybe they made them over a span of years. That would put Rice as a possibility, Okkonen's work is not 100% accurate, although it is usually pretty reliable--here's the website for those who have not seen it.
http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...s/database.htm

[Hankphenom]

I've always loved the P1s. This could be Sam Rice, but it's just a bad angle to see the face very well. As stated, the uniform is 1917 or later (Senators had the same uni 1917-1923, socks I don't know) But the real question on this one is why didn't they include the name? And are there other unnamed players in the set?
Hank Thomas

[bigtrain]

Hank,
I don't have my "book" with me but I looked this up when I was bidding on this pin and if I recall there are three or four "no name" PM1s including Bender. Of course, my preference would be for a "Barney'.