Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

[wonkaticket]

I try and try to wrap my head around grading but sometimes and every time I think I have it figured out they change the game.

The concept of grading I thought was to bring a set of standards if you will to grading and acceptable practices in our hobby done by businesses and collectors.

But where does the line get drawn on what is acceptable and what is not and why are there still such variances in what is sold to us a global set of standards?

Which brings me to this lot here below, this card listed here was sold last year in REA.

Now the card is being re-listed in its new PSA holder bumped up half a grade. All normal sometimes you can get a bump on a re-submission. But should you get that bump after chemically cleaning a card? The stains present on the above example are way more than a simple dry erase and distilled water soak IMO. If I am correct in my assumption then why would this card still retain its numerical grade?



http://www.paragonauctionsite.com/Lo...=50&category=1

Love to hear your thoughts on this I know there have been many debates on cleaning, pressing (spooning) cards etc. but to me this is example is well above.

Seems to me at this point this card has been altered from its original state, and thus should be AUTH anytime you enhance a cards features through manipulation of any kind at that point the card is altered and should simply get an AUTH grade. But hey that’s just my two cents share yours.

Two quote Steven Wright.“If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone, somewhere is making a penny.”

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Hi John- hope you are doing well.

You are going under the assumption that PSA noted the cleaning but chose to ignore it. I say they missed it completely.

[vintagecpa]

Maybe it is just the scans, but didn't the cleaning job help to show a new crease or imperfection right under Mr. Plank's chin running to the right edge of the card? It is a pretty significant cleaning job. I couldn't imagine doing anything like this with such a valuable card.

[4815162342]

Does adding a stain to a card disqualify it from being numerically graded? ...

Did Mr. Towle do this?

[ullmandds]

"Gone with the Stain"...and up goes the grade!!!

[wonkaticket]

Barry doing well, thanks for asking and you?

I had thought of that also but trying to give these guys the benefit of doubt and not try to bash etc.

But if it was missed that in itself is even more scary. I mean I understand a common card with hundreds of examples going in and out a day missing the clean job. But a card of this magnitude and in the information age we live in with online archives for tons of public transactions. Then take a card like this with a tell tale birth mark that's clear as bell and you miss this seems really sad.

These guys make a decent living how hard could it be to check the net on recent sales of any card in the say 20k+ range that comes across your desk.

I took one look and said that's the card from REA last year...heck and it’s a hobby for me not a business.

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Hi John- when I'm not breaking ice or digging up snow, I'm doing fine.

I had the same thought you did: for a high profile card such as a T206 Plank, there should be some kind of database where a grading company can trace the past transactions of a particular card. But it would be difficult to keep up, and so many transactions are private. And where does one draw the line? Sure, you would like to think that every Wagner and Plank could be traced back. But what about a T206 Lajoie? How about a 1933 Goudey Hornsby? As I said, it would be a really tough thing to do.

What the grading companies should do is spend more time grading expensive cards. I'm not completely sure the removal of this stain would have been detectable under high magnification, but for a card worth well into five figures, if I'm a grader I want to do my due diligence. Obviously, I can't say the grader was negligent, but it's possible he missed something that could have been detected.

And yes, a cleaning should have lowered the grade from an SGC 30 to a PSA Altered...if it was detected.

[iggyman]

I think PSA sometimes forgets to put the "CLEANED" qualifier. I will cut them some slack since my understanding is that the chemicals used are organic and contain 99% fish oil.

I can't quite tell, but what the heck is that a scar(?).....running vertically down Plank's PSA graded left cheek??? The sad part is, that looking at both pics and assuming the quality of the scans are more or less the same, I would prefer the one in the SGC holder .

Lovely Day...

[Leon]

If I were currently buying that card in the 2.5 holder I would at least like to know it's been cleaned. For me, and this is personal to everyone, if ONLY water was used to clean it, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. IF chemicals were used I would probably have an issue as who knows what will happen to it over time? And IF chemicals were used I could imagine the paper not holding up too well over time. I wonder if it passes the "smell test"? Nice catch John.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

If I were currently buying that card in the 2.5 holder I would at least like to know it's been cleaned. For me, and this is personal to everyone, if ONLY water was used to clean it, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. IF chemicals were used I would probably have an issue as who knows what will happen to it over time? And IF chemicals were used I could imagine the paper not holding up too well over time. I wonder if it passes the "smell test"? Nice catch John.

I don't believe that stain could be removed with water only. In fact, it looks to me like a water stain, and those can be pretty tough to completely remove. There were certainly some chemicals used on that one.

Let me also add that if you look at the cleaned area closely, it looks a little rough, as if it were abraded. Assuming I can see this on a holdered card viewing a scan, wouldn't you think a grader holding a raw card in his hand should notice this too?

[wonkaticket]

To be fair to Paragon auctions whoever they may be. Leon the card is listed as being cleaned in the auction.

I just saw the card and knew it was one of the 4 from REA last year. I'm with you on chemicals over time and that's a good question.

Anyone know of any methods used back in the day for cleaning cards that now years later have caused more problems than they fixed?

Cheers,

John

[teetwoohsix]

This is a shame. All this for a half of a grade higher? Even the back of the card looks too white, it looks like it's lost it's beautiful natural aging

It should be graded "A". Altered.

Great eye Wonka !!

Sincerely, Clayton

[T206Collector]

If you collect pre-war cards with the expectation that they have never been soaked in water or cleaned with hard-to-trace chemicals, then the good news is that you'll never notice the really good cleanings and you can keep deluding yourself.

[FrankWakefield]

Maybe it wasn't so much a stain, maybe it was remnants of cola or some water soluble fluid. Maybe the card was merely soaked. And maybe, just maybe, the card slabber folks aren't as adept at detecting a soaked card... or maybe they don't discount mere soaking at all.

If chemicals were used, then I'd like to think that those grader guys would be all over that. I don't think chemicals should be used, and if they are that should definitely be disclosed as the card changes hands. But soaking a T206 in water isn't that big of a deal, it isn't a deal at all. Many of them have been soaked, many of them were once pasted into scrapbooks.

[FrankWakefield]

One more thing... the back looks whiter. I think chemicals were used. The backs don't change like that from a mere soaking.

[terjung]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

To be fair to Paragon auctions whoever they may be. Leon the card is listed as being cleaned in the auction.

Twice, in fact.

"...Just to mention this card has been cleaned. Despite the aforementioned condition specifications, the card presents very well and the near-perfect centering and bold color create tremendous eye-appeal. Just for detail this card has been cleaned...."

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by terjung

Twice, in fact.

"...Just to mention this card has been cleaned. Despite the aforementioned condition specifications, the card presents very well and the near-perfect centering and bold color create tremendous eye-appeal. Just for detail this card has been cleaned...."

Kudos to them for mentioning it's been cleaned, but cleaned with what?

[barrysloate]

If Paragon Auctions knows it was cleaned, wouldn't PSA have known too?

[DJR]

.

[cobblove]

interesting

[botn]

The auction only states the card was cleaned. John states in his initial post that it was chemically cleaned. While Barry is certain chemicals were used, none of us knows for sure unless we were the one to do it. Also the T206 Davis which Probstein123 sold on 10/6/10 had a different cert run than the Plank. Cert of Probstein123's Davis is 17297913.

The card was obviously cleaned but I think it is a bit impulsive and therefore irresponsible to conclude it was with chemicals. Either way, the fact the submitter placed a 30K card with other cards which are worth less than $500 does seem very suspicious. This is not the first time that submitters have gotten things past PSA and exposed this vulnerability. It is an old trick that I would have thought PSA would have done something to prevent. This submission was probably done for $10 a card, or less, and not seen by the most experienced graders. If this is the case PSA should do something at the receiving stage to prevent this or at least make it less likely to happen. How complicated would the software need to be to prevent a 30k card being submitted on a submission designed to grade cards worth less than $500? As long as you place the value low enough on the submission form seems you can get anything through. If the receivers do not catch it and the graders do not catch it then you have to rely on software or this kind of thing will continue to occur.

[FrankWakefield]

Impulsivity and irresponsibility aside, that card doesn't change like that from a mere soaking. The old back has that nice, familiar creamy tone to it, the new back is white. If you don't believe that, soak some T206s and see how there's no change, but for some dirt, dust, tobacco bits, scrapbook remnants, and paste separating from the card.

Good job, John, for catching this.

Originally Posted by botn

The card was obviously cleaned but I think it is a bit impulsive and therefore irresponsible to conclude it was with chemicals.

Am I the only person to see Planks Face is 2 shades lighter also?? Water wont do that. Just wanted to point that out since I had not seen it mentioned yet. It deserves an "A" but do we really need to be surprised that PSA will slab just about anything yet somehow command better prices due to over grading and an older registry. JMO FWIW

[Rob D.]

This was no water soaking.

[barrysloate]

Greg- of course I don't know for sure chemicals were used, but on many occasions I've sent paper ephemera to my conservator to clean, and to remove a stain of that nature, he's always had to use a chemical of some kind. I just don't know how you would remove the stains on that Plank without some form of solution. That is not easy to get out.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Greg- of course I don't know for sure chemicals were used, but on many occasions I've sent paper ephemera to my conservator to clean, and to remove a stain of that nature, he's always had to use a chemical of some kind. I just don't know how you would remove the stains on that Plank without some form of solution. That is not easy to get out.

.

[tedzan]

This Plank was "WATER card-BOARDED" till it came clean


John Wonka

Please email me......

tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks,

TED Z

[alanu]

Imho, it's a little naive for anyone with a sizeable collection to think they don't have cards that have been altered in some way, even the graded one's and imho especially the higher graded one's.

In many cases it's probably almost impossible for the grading companies to catch the alterations without having access to how the card looked before the alterations.

In the case of a high profile card like this Plank, I do think the grading companies have some responsibility to check past sales of the card to see if it's a previously sold card that has been altered.


-Alan

[wonkaticket]

Please ignore this post all members I made a mistake and see nothing wrong with the above at all.

On a completely unrelated topic please also get your bids in early from my upcoming sale of one card in my collection...Leon will you hook me up with a low sellers VIG with B&L?

Ted, email me your number I'll call you I hate typing..as you can see from my posts I'm not very good at it.

Cheers,

John

[calvindog]

It's clear that PSA just missed it. What's astonishing is that a card of this magnitude and rarity could actually have gone unnoticed by PSA. How many Planks sell a year? Don't they even bother to easily check the card's history before grading it? And then to bump it up is just too funny. Kudos for Paragon for disclosing this and kudos to Paragon for running a cool auction with no buyer's premium.

[sb1]

Barry may have answered our question unknowingly. As paper conservators use several different chemicals to remove various stains, and have been doing so for decades. Is one to assume these chemicals have no long term detriment, as no one has yet to hear of any important documents, prints, paintings, etc that are either falling apart or regressing in condition.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Greg- of course I don't know for sure chemicals were used, but on many occasions I've sent paper ephemera to my conservator to clean, and to remove a stain of that nature, he's always had to use a chemical of some kind. I just don't know how you would remove the stains on that Plank without some form of solution. That is not easy to get out.

Barry,

You could be right. I do not know what type of stain was present on the card based on the scan. So not sure how looking at a scan makes one able to determine what would be required to remove it.

To those who think the card appears lighter or brighter it may also be due to two different scanners being used to create the images. The color saturation on each of the images looks different.

Chemicals or not, it is not a card I would want to own and one that PSA probably should not have graded. Nice that the auction house identified the cleaning but it would be even nicer if PSA would have had things in place to have caught it.

[barrysloate]

Scott- a good paper conservator can be called upon to clean, deacidify, and restore some very important documents. I can only hope that he is using chemicals that will help preserve them for the long term. I guess knowing what to use is part of his training.

Greg- best as I can tell, that's a fairly serious stain along the left edge of the Plank. I think one would have to use some mild bleaching agent to get it out. It's not going to come out by applying a damp rag. That stuff soaks into the paper and really is brutal to remove. If you ever get a beater card with a stain like that, try playing around with it. You won't get it clean without the proper solution.

Scott- to continue my thought, the way a conservator would attack that stain would be to start with a very weak bleaching solution, probably too weak to remove it. Then he would progressively add a little bleach, making it as strong as he can without doing damage to the card. If he senses it may be too strong, he will then add water to weaken it. It's a trial and error process.

[Doug]

The last time I saw T206s that white was when I soaked a few beaters in warm water mixed with a small scoop of Oxi Clean just to see if it would work. They came out with borders and backs that were snow white with no chemical smell at all. I sold them with the disclosure that they had been cleaned and they later popped up on eBay in slabs.

[fkw]

Id like to see a better front scan of the PSA slabbed card.

To me it looks like the scans contrast was jacked up to make the stains appear lighter. I bet in real life the stains show up more on the PSA slab than that scan indicates.

You can tell even comparing the PSA back scan and the PSA front scan that the front one had its contrast altered. look at the background color differences. Also the red part of the PSA flip is way too bright, while the SGC flip is about right.

[glchen]

I can't believe PSA would let a T206 Plank slip in at some $500 special. The card is too famous.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by fkw

Id like to see a better front scan of the PSA slabbed card.

To me it looks like the scans contrast was jacked up to make the stains appear lighter. I bet in real life the stains show up more on the PSA slab than that scan indicates.

You can tell even comparing the PSA back scan and the PSA front scan that the front one had its contrast altered. look at the background color differences. Also the red part of the PSA flip is way too bright, while the SGC flip is about right.

Looks like the SGC one was scanned correctly at the proper settings.

PSA scan looks like it was done in document mode. I don't think the contrast was altered. It was just done using a crappy scan mode.

[peterose4hof]

It takes gigantic cajones to soak a card of that magnitude/value. Even if you have a lifetime of experience in the "art" of soaking.

I think PSA should definitely take the time to do a little research when it comes to high dollar / high profile cards like the Plank if for no other reason than to avoid further damage to their reputation. Having said that, it doesn't surprise me at all that they missed it.

[teetwoohsix]

If the owner of the card wanted it "cleaned" and put in a PSA holder with a .5 bump on the grade, that's fine-it's his (or her) card. The thing that bugs me is that if they disclose that it has been cleaned, for the sake of the people bidding on it, it should be disclosed what is was cleaned with. If I was bidding on that card, I would want to know what was used to clean it, that's all.

I actually like it better the way it was in the SGC holder............

Sincerely, Clayton

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

It takes gigantic cajones to soak a card of that magnitude/value. Even if you have a lifetime of experience in the "art" of soaking.

Mystery solved.

[Kawika]

Plain as the balls on a tall squirrel.

[Jim VB]

Anthony, David,

Are you guys working the Catskills this Summer?

[wonkaticket]

No cleaning mentioned until web.....must have caught this later?

Desc: Changed online as well, no only mentions cleaning once...

[brass_rat]

Interesting follow-up now that the auction is over (and everyone is discussing the results in another thread, but I thought it would be a good archive here) --

pre-cleaning REA 2010 price: $32,313
post-cleaning Paragon price: $37,000

Anyone have guesses on what Paragon charged the seller? 13% would put the seller down on the trade...

Steve

[wonkaticket]

Steve,

I wondered the same thing, I also find it funny.

Put that card at risk by cleaning or whatever was done for a 2-5k bump at best....and if it went wrong..a loss of 32k. Seems silly to me...others may feel different.

[glynparson]

$625. per page 6 of their auction catalog.

[ChiefBenderForever]

If the seller did just slip it in as a regular hof t206 and didn't insure properly, what would've happened if the grader realized what was going on and stole the card ? Or the whole package ? What recourse would the submitter have if not properly insured or submitted ? How could they sleep while the card was away ?

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by glynparson

$625. per page 6 of their auction catalog.

Thanks, Glyn -- I completely missed that. I didn't get the catalog, but I should have easily seen it on their site...

http://paragonauctions.com/index.cfm...lia%20Auctions

Steve

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Put that card at risk by cleaning or whatever was done for a 2-5k bump at best....and if it went wrong..a loss of 32k. Seems silly to me...others may feel different.

I think the seller probably saw a wider distribution of values...

Just making up some numbers,

2.5% things go wrong - lose 15k
10% things go wrong, get altered grade, even upon resubmit - lose 10k
20% nothing changes, grade remains the same - break even
45% things go okay, get 2.5 grade - make 5k
22.5% everything goes better than expected, get grade of PSA 3 - make 30k

That's expecting to make 7.5k on 32k...which isn't a bad return...and is bumped up a lot if you choose to fool yourself into believing that the downside can't possibly occur...

It's an interesting choice to admit to cleaning the card (although it is nice that they did that)...

Steve

[wonkaticket]

"It's an interesting choice to admit to cleaning the card (although it is nice that they did that)..."

Only did that online...not in the catalog. FWIW