1949 Leaf Cards Skip Numbered?

[PolarBear]

Anyone know why Leaf skip numbered the set? Were more series planned and scrapped or was it just something they did for no reason?

[toppcat]

To mak-a zee moola

[ChiefBenderForever]

Football and boxing cards are mixed into the set.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

Football and boxing cards are mixed into the set.

In many cases though, they have the same numbers as the baseball cards.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

In many cases though, they have the same numbers as the baseball cards.

I didn't know that, I guess I'm not sure what is up with that, I thought football and boxing cards were the inbetween missing numbers. Ted Z and others that have put the set together would know what they did.

[Exhibitman]

I do not buy the idea that the FB and boxing were meant to be one set:

1. Leaf's boxing set has 49 cards (plus the famous pulled Graziano) on 1 sheet (7 x 7). No mixed sheets have ever been found. Every flipped sheet printing I have ever seen (wrong backs and double-printed fronts both) have the same configuration, i.e., the same two guys on the cards: Jeffries-Loughran, Fields-Baer, etc. The packs, wrappers and ads I've seen do not mention two sports, only boxing. There is no indication that the two were intentionally printed together or sold together.

2. If the FB and boxing were one set then why did Leaf make a boxing album? And why does it have space for 3x as many cards in it as are in the set?

No, I think greed is the reason. If certain numbers were missing the kiddies would buy more cards in an effort to fill in the set, and the album came with extra spaces to accommodate the many dupes that the kiddies would have as a result of fruitlessly busting packs to chase the missing cards.

[toppcat]

There may have been some contractual issues with a few guys that were with Bowman but they definitely skip numbered the set to sell more card IMHO. There is no pattern between the various BB, FB and Boxing cards that I can see as there are common numbers everywhere.

[paul]

I think it was to get the kids to keep on buying, looking for cards that don't exist. Further proof of this is the fact that the card numbers in the rare second series are interspersed throughout the set. For example, I think Satchel Paige is card number 3, and he is in the late-issued rare series.

[tedzan]

In 1949, Leaf intended to have 168 cards in their BB set. As we all know, they issued two series of 49 cards each = 98 cards.

So, what happened to the other 70 cards ? We simply dont know. As a 10 year old kid in 1949, I collected these BB cards.
I spent many of my pennies buying Leaf's trying to put together a complete set, because we didn't have checklists and the
card's numbers were all over the place (from 1 to 168).

LEAF GUM skip-numbered these cards simply as a "marketing trick", so that us kids would keep buying cards. And, believe me,
it worked.

Goudey played a similar "trick" with their 1933 BB set when they didn't issue 21 of their Low # cards until late in the Fall of '33.
And of course, their Lajoie card was not available till 1934.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Since Leaf didn't issue cards after 1949, maybe they had planned to fill in the missing numbers but simply gave up for economic reasons. If the cards weren't selling well, perhaps losing market share to the Bowmans, they easily could have ceased production.

[tedzan]

LEAF GUM continued to produce Non-Sports cards after 1949. And, in 1960 they issued a 144-card B & W BB set.

LEAF GUM's sportscards (Boxing, FB and BB) sets simply were skip-numbered as a clever "marketing trick" (Chicago
style), so that us kids in the late 1940's would keep buying cards.

And we did, by redeeming soda bottles by the wagonload for pennies to buy Leaf's. I probably spent $5 in pennies
before I completed my 1st series (49 cards) of the 1949 BB set. We never saw the 2nd series (short-printed cards)
in our neighborhood. Leaf distributed their 2nd series only in 4 regional areas (Boston, Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio).


TED Z

[steve B]

I thought the 1960 set came with marbles and wasn't related to the gum Company? I seem to recall seeing a picture of an unopened pack of marbles with a card.

Steve B

[tedzan]

The LEAF Company of Chicago was founded by Sol and Marshall Leaf and has been around since the mid-1930's.
It has marketed trading cards under several names.....

Leaf Gum.....1948 (Sea Pirates, Boxing, Foot Ball sets)....1949 BB & FB sets
Leaf Confectionary (Non-Sports cards)
Sports Novelties, Inc., Chicago......1960 BB B&W set
Etc., etc.

After 1949, LEAF GUM stopped producing sportscards (for a decade), due to legal battles vs the BOWMAN GUM Co.

Marshall Leaf explained why LEAF skip-numbered cards...."that they would intentionally skip numbers to get kids to
try to collect the set."

This is certainly apparent in LEAF's 1948 Boxing cards and 1949 Base Ball & Foot Ball cards.

TED Z

[toppcat]

Wasn't Leaf bought by Donruss in the 80's? I forget where Donruss ended up (probably receivership) but Donruss cross marketed with Leaf in 1985 at a minimum.

[PolarBear]

Thanks for the info Ted. You must have some amazing memories ripping packs that most of the rest of us consider vintage from another era.

I saw a post in another thread about your 52 Mantle that you personally pulled from a pack. Again, simply amazing, and even more so that you kept your cards all through the years. I don't think I have anything (cards or otherwise) that I collected as a kid.

Did you follow the Yankees - Red Sox pennant race in 1949?

What was your favorite team and favorite player when you were a kid?

What cards were the favorite pulls from packs?


Hope you don't mind the staccato-like questions, but I'd love to hear some of your personal stories.

[steve B]

Thanks Ted. I'd heard years ago that the 1960 set was a different company, it's good to get the right story.

I never doubted the skip numbering as a sales ploy.

Didn't Topps get in trouble over a few missing numbers in the late 50's sets?

Steve B

[tedzan]

Due to conflicts with Bowman, the 1953 Topps set is missing 6 numbered cards.

Also, 4 #'s are missing in the 1955 Topps set.

I'm not aware of missing cards in the subsequent Topps sets.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

My responses to your inquiries......

1st......"I saw a post in another thread about your 52 Mantle that you personally pulled from a pack."

I opened up my very last BB card pack as a kid in the Fall of 1952 to find Chapman, Herman, Jeffcoat,
Spencer, and Mantle.


2nd......"Again, simply amazing, and even more so that you kept your cards all through the years."

I credit my dear Aunt Anna for saving all my cards while I was in the Air Force (1960-64). She lived with us after my Uncle passed away.


3rd......"Did you follow the Yankees - Red Sox pennant race in 1949? "

I did....I was a Yankees fan, since Phil Rizzuto lived 2 blocks from our home in Hillside, NJ. My favorite players at the time were Johnny
Lindell (who hit the 9th inning HR to beat the Red Sox in the last weekend of the 1949 season)..,.,and Joe Page, who would come into
relieve (as early as the 6th inning) in a game and completely shut down the opposing team.


4th......What cards were the favorite pulls from packs?

Besides the 1952T Mantle.......

In 1948 opening up a LEAF pack and getting Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis cards.

In the Spring of '49, opening up a LEAF pack and getting a Babe Ruth card.

In the Fall of '49, opening up a BOWMAN 5-cent pack and getting a Johnny Mize variation.
Mize had been traded to the Yankees in August 1949 which made me very happy. Johnny has always been one of my all-time favorite
BB players. When I got back into the hobby in the 1970's, I met Johnny several times (including visiting with him in Demorest, GA).

In the Fall of '49, opening up a BOWMAN 5-cent pack and getting George Stirnweiss as my final Yankees card in this set.

There are others; but, I remember these the best.


Regards,

TED Z

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Due to conflicts with Bowman, the 1953 Topps set is missing 6 numbered cards.

Also, 4 #'s are missing in the 1955 Topps set.

I'm not aware of missing cards in the subsequent Topps sets.


Regards,

TED Z

Ted, '58 Topps is missing #145 Ed Bouchee, after he was charged with some sort of sex crime.

[PolarBear]

Thanks Ted, neat stories!

Originally Posted by Griffins

Ted, '58 Topps is missing #145 Ed Bouchee, after he was charged with some sort of sex crime.

Yup, #145 missing. What always annoyed me about that though is when Topps got Musial on the hook late in the season and issued an all star card, they didn't go ahead an issue a regular Musial card as #145 to fill in the set. 1958 Topps would be an almost perfect baseball set if they had done that.

[tedzan]

The last major BB card issues to have Stan Musial in them were the 1952 and 1953 Bowmans. It was my understanding that Stan did
not sign with Topps in 1952 or 1953 since he had a contract with Bowman. And he was under contract with Wheaties in 1951 & 1952.

In 1954, Sy Berger (Topps biggie) signed Ted Williams (Berger was a huge Ted W. fan). Somehow, I feel that herein lies a connection
why Topps did not portray Musial in their 1954 - 1958 sets. Finally, Topps included Musial in their 1958 (late) series of All-Star cards.

Furthermore, consider the following pattern of Bowman issues......

1948......Musial
1949......Musial
1950......Ted Williams
1952......Ted Williams
1952......Musial
1953......Musial
1954......Ted Williams....but, Topps forced Bowman to discontinue their Ted Williams card (#66).


TED Z

[PolarBear]

Yup, closest Musial and Williams came to being in a Topps set together was the 1958 all star card of Musial, but no regular card.

I've read that the reason Musial did not appear in Topps was they just didn't offer him what he wanted.

Another story I read was that Sy knew the owner of the Cardinals and agreed to have Topps (or Cy personally, can't remember) donate to one of his charities. He agreed if the owner would get Musial to agree to be in the Topps sets. He did, but it was late 1958 and he only appeared in the late series all star sub set. I just wish Topps would have though about it and given him the missing #145 as a regular card as well.

Ted of course was in Korea in 1952 and 1953. If not, I believe he would have been in the two Bowman sets with Musial, barring an exclusive contract with Topps. Ted then jumped to Fleer in 1959 when Musial finally got a regular card in Topps, so we never really get them both in a Topps set as regular cards.

They did appear together in the 49 Leaf set, as well as the Red Man set. Musial also appeared in the 1954 Red Heart set and the 1955 Rawlings set. Not sure if those were exclusive contracts. If so that would explain why he wasn't in Topps those years.

Not sure about 1956. There's another disappointment. If Musial had been in the 1956 Topps set, it would have been a perfect set.

[PolarBear]

Topps releases special cards every year at the National. in 2005 they released the "missing numbers" in the 1955 set, which includes the Musial.

[tedzan]

Don
Responding to these two comments of yours......

"Ted of course was in Korea in 1952 and 1953. If not, I believe he would have been in the two Bowman sets with Musial,
barring an exclusive contract with Topps."

I'm not sure about that......why wasn't Ted in the 1948 & 1949 BOWMAN sets; and, why wasn't Stan in the 1950 & 1951
BOWMAN sets ?

Both Musial and Williams were not only in the 1949 LEAF set, but prior to it, they were both in the 1947 BOND BREAD set.
Also, in the 1952 BERK-ROSS set. It's quite a mystery why they appear to be mutually exclusive in the BOWMAN sets ? ?

Don......
"Ted then jumped to Fleer in 1959 when Musial finally got a regular card in Topps, so we never really get them both in a
Topps set as regular cards."

Ted W. just didn't "jump" to FLEER in 1959. Have you read of my personal conversation with Ted (in 1984) regarding why
and how FLEER produced their 80-card set of Ted ?


TED Z

[PolarBear]

Not sure why Ted didn't appear in the 49 Bowman, I would think he should have. The 48 Bowman set though, at 48 cards, almost doesn't qualify as a set. Granted, Ted was a star but some people were bound to be missing.

Ted wasn't in Topps in 52 or 53 either. I really think his absence those years in both sets was because he was out of baseball. I really think we would have seen them both in the Bowman sets had he been in baseball. Never know though.

I'd love to read your conversation with Williams about Fleer. Is there a link to a thread on the forum?

[tedzan]

The following is a pretty accurate recollection of my conversation with Ted Williams in 1984.
We talked for about 45 minutes and this is part of it........

I started by telling Ted......

ME.....Ted, although I was an avid Yankees fan as a kid in the 1950's, I always rooted for you
to hit a HR at Yankee Stadium.
..........and sure enough, many times I saw you hit a HR....way up into the RF upper deck.

TED....If you're a Yankees fan, why did you root for me to hit a HR ?
ME.....Because your name is Ted; and besides, I always expected that the Yankees would win
the AL Pennant, anyways.

TED....(he smiled) why are you a Yankees fan ?
ME.....because Phil Rizzuto was my nearby neighbor in Hillside, NJ

TED....if the Scooter was on the Red Sox all those years, we would have been the Champs.

Then I turned the conversation to his BB cards. He was like a little kid.....I still remember how
enthusiastic he was "talkin' BB cards".
I showed Ted his 1954 Bowman card.

ME.....are you aware of how rare this 1954 Bowman card of you is ?
TED....no, but I signed a contract with Sy Berger of Topps in 1954 and no other Gum Co. was
allowed to portray me.

Then, without me asking him, Ted went on this long dissertation telling me how Sy Berger was
annoyed with him in 1959, when Fleer approached his agent to do a series of cards depicting
Ted. Fleer offered Ted $500 to do this series of 80 cards. Sy Berger offered Ted $1000 to stay
with Topps. Ted started laughing, as he told me that a bidding war between Fleer and Topps
ensued.
When Fleer upped the ante to $5000, Topps relented. And that people, is the real story behind
the 1959 Fleer Ted Williams set....straight from Ted, himself.

TED....Just think about it, that was a lot of money back then for having your pictures on a set
of gum cards.
ME.....Ted, you ain't kidding, that was my Dad's annual salary in 1959.

He gave me a firm handshake and thanked me for an interesting conversation.


TED Z

[PolarBear]

Neat Story Ted. Thanks for sharing. I wonder how much Fleer made on their $5000 investment.

At 5c a pack they would have to sell 100,000 (not counting overhead) to recoup the investment.

I still be they made a ton of money off Ted.

[doug.goodman]

One of the numerous reasons why, even though I have never met him, Tedzan is my card collecting hero.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

By the way, I believe these are all of the non-issued Topps card numbers (pre 1990) :

1953 - 253, 261, 267, 268, 271, 275

1955 - 175, 186, 203, 209

1958 - 145

1961 - 426, 587, 588

Let me know if I missed, or am wrong, about any.
Doug

[tedzan]

Thanks for the kind words. Your #'s are correct. My understanding is that the missing 6 numbered cards in the 1953T set
was due to the Bowman vs Topps conflict (especially regarding Phillies cards).

Bowman (being Philly based) prevented Topps from portraying the Phillies stars, Ashburn, Ennis, Konstanty, Roberts, Sim-
mons, etc. in their 1953 set.



Best regards,

TED Z

[bigjaco]

Great thread, interesting to read. Thanks.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks for the kind words. Your #'s are correct. My understanding is that the missing 6 numbered cards in the 1953T set
was due to the Bowman vs Topps conflict (especially regarding Phillies cards).

Bowman (being Philly based) prevented Topps from portraying the Phillies stars, Ashburn, Ennis, Konstanty, Roberts, Sim-
mons, etc. in their 1953 set.

TED Z

And quite possibly in 1951 as well as there is a Philly connection with the three Topps Major League AS who are short printed: two are Phillies (Roberts, Konstanty) and one was born there (Stanky). The Philly/Bowman connection may also have sunk the Team Card set that year too.