Chief Bender Cabinet Card?

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Posted By: phil garry

I would like to ask for everyone's input in determining if the below cabinet card indeed pictures Chief Bender. I haved also included the ebay listing where I picked this card up from so that you can view the seller's description.




Seller: the714gallery( 1265)

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Description


Item Specifics - Sports Trading Cards

Original/Reprint: Original Card Attributes: --

Product: Single

Sport: Baseball-MLB Professionally Graded: No

Year/Season: 1900

Card Manufacturer: --


The714Gallery

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Chief Bender Cabinet Card Original c.1900 Pre Rookie
This 5 1/4" X 6 1/2" card is of a 17 year old Chief Bender and an unknown catcher circa 1901 playing for the Carlisle Indian Industrial School team, just 2 years before he signed to play with Connie Mack's Philadelphia Athletics.

Came from an original private collection which featured all Indian heritage players from the 1800's and early 1900's.

The earliest image of Chief Bender (Charles Albert Bender) to exist and an extremely rare image - which is stronger than our scan with the original cabinet backing in superb condition with no tears or markings.
With large populations of Bender tobacco cards available for $2,500 to $5,000 and up, we believe this item be much more rare and an item for the true collector - and have priced the item accordingly - we rate this item a strong 5+.
We guarantee this item to be 100% original - so buy with confidence.
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Bender Bio
After graduating from Carlisle Indian Industrial School, Bender went on to a stellar career as a starting pitcher from 1903 to 1917, primarily with Connie Mack's Philadelphia Athletics (though with stints at the end of his career with the Baltimore Terrapins of the short-lived Federal League, the Philadelphia Phillies, and the Chicago White Sox).
Over his career, his win-loss record was 212-127, for a .625 winning percentage (a category in which he would lead the American League in three seasons). His talent was even more noticeable in the high-pressure environment of the World Series: in five trips to the championship series, he managed six wins and a 2.44 ERA. In the 1911 Series, he pitched three complete games, which set the record for most complete games pitched in a six-game series. He also threw a no-hitter in 1910.
Bender was voted into the Hall of Fame in 1953, less than one year before his death. In 1981, Lawrence Ritter and Donald Honig included him in their book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

PAYPAL AND CREDIT CARDS ACCEPTED FOR THIS AUCTION.
BID WITH CONFIDENCE AS WE HAVE OVER 2000+ POSITIVE EBAY RATINGS.
Payment due at auction close.


edited out some spaces

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

sorry

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Does not look like Bender to me...and the guy in your photo is wearing a jersey for an "Athletic Club"...not something I've ever seen for the Carlisle School.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Phil- I've been staring at this photo for a little while now, and I am having trouble finding any resemblance to Bender. I hate these descriptions that identify a player with such certainty, when in fact there is such a strong possibility it is wrong.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Check the ears. This is not Chief Bender.

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Posted By: sporteq

IMO .. he sells some suspicious items. He currently has a 1915 Babe Ruth

pitching photo .. AS you know, it has the AP logo on the photo which indicates it`s

from 1935 when AP wire started putting logs in photos. He states the photo is from

1915 era not good!!



I think them Cooperstown Archive photos look kinda scary too .. i don`t believe there

period photo as he claims. Not saying he`s a bad seller .. he might not just be aware

of the items history etc.

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Posted By: George HC

You just got punk'd!

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Posted By: bmarlowe

As noted above - always check the ears. If the photo is clear enough, this is absolutely the best way to check indentity. - This cannot possibly be Bender.

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Posted By: Mark T

You paid a lot for the photo...since the seller claimed many times in the description it is Bender then you have the right to a refund.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If it's not the person it's represented to to be, it's a fake. The definition of fake isn't dependent on seller's intent, just that representation of the item is majorly different from what what the item really is. Some fakery can be intentional, some can be innocent. That an item is majorly misidentified is justification enough for return/refund. The definition of forgery, on the other hand, involves intent, made with the intent to deceive. This is why, when in doubt of the seller's intent and knowledge, you publicly call a fake a fake, not a forgery.

Duly note that a fake isn't defined just by what it is, but by what it is versus what it's labeled as. If you label a T206 reprint a T206 reprint it's not a fake. The true identity and label match. It's when you label the same card as an original that it's a fake.

Also note that fake applies to when the identify is majorly misidentified, a crisis in identity. If a 1915 Ty Cobb Photo is called 1913, or a 1971 Topps is called a 1971 Topps but misgraded, those don't fall into the fake category. The identification of these two items was largely and essentially accurate, but some details were off. Though in the case of the 1971 Topps, the off detail may be justify for refund.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The ears are the fingerprints of facial recognition...no two ears are alike. In this case the ears of Bender and the ears of the fellow pictured above couldn't be more different. Phil I hope you haven't paid for the photo yet...and if you have, you have a clear case to get a full refund here. The burden is on this seller to prove that it is Bender and he does nothing of the sort with his description. He must show some proof that it's Bender. ...personally I'd like to hear an explanation why the guy is wearing an Athletic Club uniform and he says it's a photo of Bender in his Carlisle School uniform.

I took a look at his other auctions and some of his titles and descriptions are quite dubious.

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Posted By: bmarlowe

Dan could not more correct. I wrote an article that covered this in the 2008 SABR National Pastime as well as a column early last year for the SABR Pictorial History Committee (pardon the shameless self promotion).

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Posted By: leon

You can set up your avatar in the account information on yourself. There is a tab that says "personal photo" and that is where you do it. best regards

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Maybe the catcher is Bender.

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Posted By: dennis

maybe the seller used this e91 to id the picture as bender.

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Thanks for all of your input, everyone. I did pay for the item already via paypal using my credit card and have already e-mailed the seller asking for a full refund. If they do not provide one, I will do a chargeback through my credit card company and/or paypal.

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Posted By: JudgeDred2

Wow, Phil I sure hope you can recoup.

I read all the comments - great stuff.

Dennis.... hahahahahaha... that made my day...!

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Now, that is Chief Bender with a bat.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The funny thing is the guy in the cabinet has a resemblance to Home Run Baker.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

My question is how do you buy this photo when the guy in the photo does not even resemble Chief Bender? There are so many photos of Bender on the web for you to compare to. I understand Dan's point with the ears but the guy's face does not even compare to Bender's features. Also it is interesting that he is holding the bat with a Ty Cobb like split grip.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I don't have 18 year old eyes so cut me some slack right off the bat but I think this cabinet does resemeble Bender a bit

I can't see enough details in the ear to use that as a determination. The seller states this is a young 17 year old bender.. I certainly am not expert enough to say 'NO WAY IN HELL'. I got a big 24 inch monitor so PLEASE tell me my eyes are NOT that bad.. The seller also states this cabinet came from a private collection, perhaps you can gain more info from the original collector..

I can see the resemblence.. tell me i'm not going blind..

marty

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Posted By: leon

It looks like Bender to me...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I've just looked at Marty's 4 person photo... and I've not checked other photos, but it looks like Bender on the left, Joss standing in the middle, Waddell seated in the middle... who's to the right??


Anyone else think that's Joss and Waddell?? Ear experts?


I've come back to edit this after the identification was posted below, to say that Plank is what I intended, not Joss. I knew that wasn't Joss. Those are Mr. Mack's players... And I wouldn't have identified Coakley.

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Posted By: Mark L

It's hard to say. Are the initials on the uni supposed to show that he is playing for the Carlisle Indian Academy? Perhaps the Indian Academe de Carlisle? Lacking some further evidence, I am a skeptic.

Marty, nice photo! Who is the guy on the right? Andy Coakley?

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Now that is Chief Bender or a sunt double. Also the gentleman standing in the middle looks alot like Eddie Plank, my guess is that it is Eddie Plank.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

To claify, the 4 person photo is not mine. It's just one I found on Google Images. The photo is of the 1905 Philadelphia A's pitching staff; Bender, Plank, Waddell and Coakley. It's the earliest photo of Chief Bender I could find and using it as a refernce to Phil's cabinet photo, I think there is a resemblence.. at least it does to me!

marty

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Marty...is the man standing in the middle Eddie Plank?

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Posted By: JDRUM

I'm with Marshall, that's Plank in the middle with Bender and Waddell. No id on the fourth.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Unquestionably Bender, Waddell, and Plank, with the guy on the right in fact Coakley.



Could someone put the cabinet card next to the oval photo for comparison. My opinion is it is two different people.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Per the Philadelphiaathletics.org web site;

From bottom to Center: Rube Waddell, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, and Andy Coakley.

marty

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I knew it had to be Plank. What a great photo.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

The guy in the cabinet photo does not even look indian to me so no way it is Chief Bender. By the way he is holding the bat my guess is he was not a pitcher either.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

The best I could do;

I think it could go either way.

marty

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Posted By: marshall barkman

The guy in the cabinet photo has a different ear. It looks like the bottom of his ear is actually attached to the side of his head where Chief Bender's ear is cleary different. I would not want that cabinet card hoping it would turn out to be chief Bender.

Marty....i am wondering if someone spiked your coffee this morning (-:

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's only a very slight resemblance, and almost certainly two different people. This kind of careless photo identification, where the owner hopes he has struck gold by finding a famous player, has been going on as long as I can remember.

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Further research has uncovered that Bender spent some time in 1902 playing for a semi-pro Harrisburg Athletic Club team. From there, he was signed by Connie Mack's A's and began his Major League career with them the following year, 1903.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Ok boys the Mirage in Vegas now has the odds board up. 1-1 it is not Bender 100-1 it is Bender.

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Posted By: Mark L

I think you've definitely got a photo of someone who might be Chief Bender.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Marshall- I'll take the 1 to 1.

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Posted By: dan mckee

No way Bender, maybe a chief though

www.danmckee.com/pictures/types001.jpg>

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Marshall, if someone had spiked my coffee I could probably see better!

I know what you mean about the ears but I just can't see his ear clearly enough in the cabinet photo to say for sure. The mouth is really freaky to me... lots of folks can have similar mouths so that's probably not a big deal but its almost an identical type of frown.

It's probably not Bender, but I wouldn't bet 100-1. perhaps 5-1.

marty

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Posted By: bmarlowe

This discussion is a good example of religion vs science. It doesn't matter if he resemble Bender or not. It isn't Bender because the ears don't match. There is substantial scinetific literature on this issue. This is used in criminal investigation and other areas of security,including intelligence.

If the cabinet card was a shot of a 7-11 robbery from a security camera - if they charged Bender, the case would not even get to court.

I understand Marty's problem with clearly seeing the ears - I will try to post some images that show this as clearly as possible. Marshall has it dead on the money.

If anyone wants to read some published articles on this with respect to old baseball photos - email me.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Well Barry you were the only taker at 1-1 and the Mirage is ready to give you your prize. A all expenses paid trip to the nearest Chuck E Cheese. I am suprised though that anyone could buy this card thinking it is Chief Bender, my photograph collectors would rip that cabinet card to shreads if i tried to sell it as Bender. Photography buyers are very keen in regards to likeness of the person. This cabinet card was not even close. I still say the guy is not even Indian.

I have to admit that i love the split grip on the bat. Just the way he is standing i am going to say he was a outfielder. What would be fantastic is if we could find more about the team and actually the guy, kind of like our own Network 54 CSI case.

Solve the mystery man who was sold as Chief Bender.

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Posted By: S Gross

I don't know .......... the guy in the catchers mask, he kinda' looks like Bender (although ears are unclear).

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The problem with religion in photo identification is the bidders have to belong to the same religion.

One thing to remember is that in you high school you probably had someone who resembled someone famous. If you go through five thousand tintypes and a give thousand cabinet cards, you will come across nobodies who resemble famous people.

One detail that sticks out to me is how does the seller account with that the letters on the jersey don't align with a Carlisle Indian School identification. It's like saying a photo shows Red Grange in college, when they jersey says UM (Grange went to University of Illinois, for those who don't know).

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

Conclusion: almost certainly not Bender

Moral to the Story (based on many years of experience): unless the photo ID absolutely, positively, conclusively, definitively screams out it is the guy you are hoping it is (in which case without further compelling corroborating evidence you probably would have at best a 50% shot it is that guy), you're wasting your time going further without that other compelling corroborating evidence/provenance. In the case at hand, the photo ID IMO doesn't match up and there is no other compelling corroborating evidence/provenance. Sorry.

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Posted By: sporteq

.... the update on this!?! Hope you got your money back .. also curious as to what the seller had to say!!


best of luck,

al

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Posted By: Phil Garry

An employee from the seller's company promised a response by Monday morning (tomorrow). I'll let everyone know what happens.

Thanks again for the input everybody!

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Posted By: Richard L.

Visiting from the non-sport forum side, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Does this draw any red flags? First link the714gallery sold this item and the second link the714gallery purchased the item. Original seller b-e-collectibles, clearly states "affordable alternative" and "replicated". But when the714gallery sold the ring, no mention of this!

http://tinyurl.com/csb2gt


http://tinyurl.com/ddm279

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Posted By: dennis

they also have some fake 206's at outrageous prices.

edited to add their return policy: All Sales Are Final And All Items Are Sold As Is