Conducting auctions on the B/S/T

Adam · #1 06-04-2009, 08:56 PM

In a recent "auction style" posting on the B/S/T, a member wrote: "If you're complaining about the auction style, or auctions in general, please do it somewhere else, on the main board. I don't mind the bashing, but it isn't fair to interfere with the auction. Thanks."

Accordingly, I am posting my concerns here as follows --

I, like many, have noticed the increased popularity of "auctions" on the B/S/T. One very significant consequence of these auctions is the large number of replies necessary to sell something (or, if a "dutch auction," the significant number of posts required by a seller if the starting price is high). Recently, for example, it took approximately 14 replies to sell a single T206 common.

For those who sell on the B/S/T, you are no doubt aware that each reply to a listing represents a "bump to the top," or, more importantly for our purposes, a "bump to the bottom" for the listings of all other sellers (most notably those utilizing the long-standing B/S/T fixed price format).

So my question is where on the forum do these new "auctions" belong??

Fortunately, there is already an existing section of the B/S/T appropriately titled: "Ebay/Vintage Card Auctions VBC Forum B/S/T." (To find this section, simply click on the "Buy/Sell/Trade Section" icon at the top.)

I propose this existing, appropriately named section is where all auctions belong. To conduct auctions in any other section of the B/S/T is acting to the detriment of other sellers.

Thoughts?

sgbernard · #2 06-04-2009, 09:18 PM

I'll bump your thread. I couldn't agree more. There's I think an informal rule of not bumping a post on the first page of the BST, and the auctions are playing havoc with that. I think the auctions are a good thing generally and should definitely continue, but I'm constantly seeing them as the most recent post on the BST and thinking nothing new has been put up for sale. I think putting them in the already existing separate category and leaving the original categories for sales would be appropriate.

[Edited]: it does appear that the already existing category is for announcing auctions elsewhere, so maybe there should be a new category created for Net54 auctions.

Matt · #3 06-04-2009, 09:20 PM

Good points.
One other alternative to consider is to have people email or PM their bids to the seller and have the seller just edit the OP with the new bids instead of adding posts to the thread. That way it wouldn't get bumped either.

Rob D. · #4 06-04-2009, 09:27 PM

Adam makes valid points. And for the record, there was no "bashing" (at least on the board).

FrankWakefield · #5 06-04-2009, 09:48 PM

Alright.... for the first time ever I've gone to look at the section entitled: "Ebay/Vintage Card Auctions VBC Forum B/S/T."

Anything posted in the last week has been for stuff on eBay, I didn't look more than a week back. I don't think that's the place for me to auction a T206 card. That would be a place for me to hype an eBay auction of mine.

I've listed a second one. And it may well be the last one I list since doing it seems to upset some folks. When I do list it, my plan is to sell it to the high bidder... and that is SELLING. I assure you that the card of Wabash George Mullin was deserving of multiple bumps to the top as folks bid, and that that card is now just as SOLD as it would have been if I'd have sold it for $20 postpaid to start with. George Mullin was a bartender back home in Wabash, Indiana in his later days. That should make his card deserving of attention.

I do see the sense of what was said about an auctioned card listing having the bids sent via email with the seller 'editing' his original post to continually display the auction price... but there are problems with that. The thread would have no more posts and sink like a stone. If the seller had a life and was therefore unable to constantly update bids on the site then bidders would be frustrated, not knowing where the bidding was.

Maybe a solution would be to have a separate Net54 auction thread for each of the extant BST catagories... I don't see jamming what I did into that eBay thread as fair.

So I've listed a decent looking T206 of Frank Isbell (did you know he played infield, outfield, and pitched in the majors?), and the concern and posts that have been expressed have convinced me not to try another auction anytime soon. I'm sorry you guys have been inconvenienced by it. One way to make the Isbell aucton go away quickly would be for one of you to bid about $50 for it, more than I think it's worth, that way there would be no more bids and it would sink like a rock.

Frank W.

jmk59 · #6 06-05-2009, 04:51 AM

I agree with everybody here.

It's probably not good to have a lot of auctions in the selling threads because of the auctions will get many more natural bumps than the sell threads. They didn't really bother me, but if it got to be more than a handful, it might be too much.

It's also probably not good to try to jam them into the ebay area - the ebay threads will get bumped down, plus that will create a bit of a mishmash of dissimilar threads. The area has "Vintage Card Auctions" in the title because it was created as a place to publicize these auctions, not to conduct them. Just having the words in the name doesn't make it the proper place.

I think a new area would be a neat thing to try. Clearly there is an interest and a few successful tries already. A new area for auction formats could become a vibrant addition to the BST. Let the creativity play itself out.

But something should happen soon. While I agree with the concerns, the fact that the debate has been brought to the board will kill this format and this idea within the next few days. Frank has already said he is done because of the debate, and I'm not sure anyone else will feel comfortable starting an auction over there now since the concerns have been brought up and discussed.

We should give the idea and approach a good clear shot before the momentum is gone for good.

J

barrysloate · #7 06-05-2009, 05:08 AM

All good points. If auctions are becoming popular on BST, then they should have their own section. As previously stated, it isn't fair to the straight sellers to have their threads constantly bumped down.

Of course, if you list an item and state "$500 OBO", in a sense that is an auction too, as you are taking various offers from each buyer.

Leon · #8 06-05-2009, 06:32 AM

I am open to discussing this issue (do I have a choice?). I looked at the categories and I don't think there is one I want to get rid of though.....

FrankWakefield · #9 06-05-2009, 06:40 AM

Having thought about this overnight....

If I have a card auction on the BST and it gets 7 bids, I agree it is bumped to the top 7 times. BUT that doesn't knock a straight sale down 7 notches, it only knocks it down one notch. So that bump evil isn't quite as egregious as has been implied.

An auction is a sale.

Putting them in there with those links to eBay auctions isn't the right place for them.

The Isbell T206 auction will be my last one for a while, didn't mean to get folks so riled.

sgbernard · #10 06-05-2009, 06:47 AM

Frank, not riled at all, I think auctions are a good thing, I just still think they need a new category. Here's why: you're right that your auction is only one bump and doesn't move sales all the way down the page, but that is the same with EVERY auction that benefits from constant bumping. So, examine the BST page right now, and you'll see Auctions up top, then sales below. And that's how it's going to be with auctions in the sales page, and if there are more auctions, it will be like cream floating to the top, and though every auction is one thread, they will collectively displace the sales. That's the problem as I see it.

FrankWakefield · #11 06-05-2009, 07:33 AM

2 more thoughts....

1- the fellow selling screwdowns and toploaders on the BST thread... those aren't even cards!! Maybe we need a supplies catagory, too.

2- maybe folks selling on the BST should consider doing so by way of the auction format since they have such great advantages over the straight sale listings.

Still, Isbell will be the last auction I do here for the time being. He's reached a sufficient price for me to let the auction close. I'll bump it back to the top when I post the closing time (after I hear back from the high bidder), then I'll put auctions to rest.

Matt · #12 06-05-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Of course, if you list an item and state "$500 OBO", in a sense that is an auction too, as you are taking various offers from each buyer.

Barry - good point; there is really just a subtle difference between that and what Frank has setup with "He's reached a sufficient price for me to let the auction close."

Rob D. · #13 06-05-2009, 08:11 AM

Golly, Frank, I don't see anyone "bashing" or getting "riled." It's a discussion.

Please don't take your auctions and go home.

barrysloate · #14 06-05-2009, 08:18 AM

Matt- of course there are slight differences, but auctions and direct sales could easily have their own sections. Perhaps the auctions could be placed in the section for ebay and catalog auction announcements.

With regard to straight sales getting bumped down, there is no harm in a seller simply bumping his own thread when he feels it fallen too far down the column. That in turn could bring about a bumping war, with sellers and auctioneers fighting for the top spot.

sgbernard · #15 06-05-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That in turn could bring about a bumping war, with sellers and auctioneers fighting for the top spot.

Barry: exactly.

Leon · #16 06-05-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

2 more thoughts....

1- the fellow selling screwdowns and toploaders on the BST thread... those aren't even cards!! Maybe we need a supplies catagory, too.
.

This thread just got moved to the "everything else" spot on the BST. It was in the wrong spot. I am still open for a solution to the auction/BST situation but as everyone will remember I sort of said I didn't want to hear about issues......(yeah, I know, good luck on that)

D. Bergin · #17 06-05-2009, 09:17 AM

A new "Net54 Auctions" Category seems like the simplest solution to me. Does the software for this forum not allow the expansion of categories?

Leon · #18 06-05-2009, 09:26 AM

I am going to get with Brian M. and see if we can combine the boxing and golf categories and then make a new Net54/BST/Auction category. I don't want there to be more cateogories as there are more than enough now but if we combine two and make another I don't think I have a problem with that. I think this will be a fairly easy fix.... but it could involve some more scraping of data so it could take a few days.....

tedzan · #19 06-05-2009, 10:00 AM

What is all this bickering about ? I don't see anything deleterious, regarding anyone conducting a "mini-auction" on the B/S/T.
Give us a break....one little ungraded T206 (or two) that might sell for less than $20 each; and, a big controversy arises !

It reminds me of a similar experience I had (on a grander scale) at the Philly Show about a dozen years ago. I decided to part
with a 1915 Cracker Jack set (complete with all 176 cards). The condition of this set was all over the place; but, the Cobb,
Johnson, Matty and Joe Jackson were at least Vg. I really could not figure what to price it at. So, instead of selling it outright,
I decided to conduct an auction at my booth.

Of course, this set generated a huge amount of interest. And, several customers were ticked-off at me for doing this. Conversely,
many others participated in my auction. And, we had a lot of fun doing it. I was happy with the results. So was Terry Knouse (the
winner) happy with his purchase.

My point here is....I guess I'll never understand those who do not appreciate the benefits of "free market capitalism".....

T-Rex TED

shammus · #20 06-05-2009, 10:03 AM

Well, I think the "auctions" are sort of neat and I think they have a place here on Net 54. We might need to work out a couple small details. Just kind of like normal transactions, we'd expect people to communicate well, uphold their end of the transaction, etc...

One concern I have is that inevitably, someone who has their card up for auction will be very disappointed by the final price that has been earned. So how would we monitor this section so that people don't simply withdraw from the transaction if they're not happy with how their card performed?

I would recommend simply a new category in the BST index page. A "Net54Baseball.com Auctions" category could easily be added and would do well to keep those sort of auctions seperate from the actual buying/selling/trading requests.

For supplies, I think those are important too and really could stay where they are or go in the Everything Else catagory. They don't come up too often so I can see continuing to place them in the same section as the cards that they pertain too. They might be easier to find and get a little more notice that way.

For boxing and golf - dunno if combining is really necessary. It's no skin off our back to have them in two seperate categories and there's no advantage to combining. Especially given that these are two different sports with nothing really in common, I would just leave those the way they are. If we were to combine those however, I could just manually move the golf threads over to the boxing forum. There's only 67 of them so it wouldn't take too long.

Just my two cents...
Brian

carrigansghost · #21 06-05-2009, 10:18 AM

This doesn't seem like much of a huge deal to me, then again, I'm not bothered by much of anything. How about making all auction last one week from initial post, no snipe bids, good luck getting your last post in before the other bidder. If you put it up for bidding, my opinion would be to take the final hammer price, shipping included, and thank everyone for participating. Next we will probably have to hear about collusion to keep the price down, but I doubt that would happen here after my many dealings with the gentleman and ladies that are a part of this forum.

Rawn

T206Collector · #22 06-05-2009, 10:19 AM

I was going to post a thread this morning on why I really like all the new auctions in the BST thread. I think they're fun and they just about guarantee a card will sell quickly. That can only broaden the appeal of our community.

Anthony S. · #23 06-05-2009, 10:41 AM

Nobody thinks conducting auctions on Net54 is a bad idea. Quite the contrary, the individuals who first raised their concerns about the effect that auctions would have on sellers if they are all listed in the same category, all pointed out that they thought auctions were a positive development (myself included).

Nor is the problem that Frank took the initiative to see if auctions would work on the BST. His auction was successful. It seems obvious they'll work just fine.

The problem, for sellers, lies in the inevitable growing popularity of auctions on the BST. Frank proved they'll work. They're fun. Hell, I already have a card in mind that I want to auction. One person running an auction doesn't adversely effect sellers. Ten to fifteen people running auctions concurrently would have a profound effect on sellers.

I know from personal experience, ie the page view counter on my imageevent website, that when my sales listings are at the top of a BST forum I get a helluva lot more page views than I do when they get knocked down a few spots. When I'm selling several cards I often get 100 plus page views in the first day. By the 3rd or 4th day, when my post has meandered toward the bottom of the page, I might get 2-5 page views. And when I bump my post back up to the top a week later, I immediately get 30-40 views that day. And that translates to sales. So if someone is trying to sell several different cards and they keep getting knocked further down the forum by multiple auctions in which people are raising bids for a solitary card by a dollar or two at a time, I can see it becoming very frustrating for sellers. Because whereas right now the process of getting knocked down the page can take several days, adding a slew of popular auctions could shorten that period to a matter of hours.

Combining two of the less frequented BST categories in order to make room for a new separate auction category seems to me to be a great solution.

T206Collector · #24 06-05-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

Combining two of the less frequented BST categories in order to make room for a new separate auction category seems to me to be a great solution.

Agreed.

FrankWakefield · #25 06-05-2009, 10:55 AM

The first auction of the Mullins card lasted less than 59 hours.

The second auction will last about 37 hours.

Neither were 7 day auctions. To the extent that they detracted to normal BST activity, it would be only one thread that dropped to the second page, the auction would take up only one slot no matter how many times it was bumped. And they have very short lives....

I tried the first one to see if it would work, just to have something to do, and to a lesser extent to avoid eBay fees. Realistically auctioning here results in much less exposure, with no financial cost.

Thank you Leon for hosting a site for my first and second auctions.

rdixon1208 · #26 06-05-2009, 11:53 AM

I love the auction idea. I also have a card or two in mind that I would like to try to auction. Obviously, I'll wait until all of this gets worked out.

So if there's any way to make it happen, I think it would be very, very cool to have a new section only for auctions.

shammus · #27 06-05-2009, 12:05 PM

The auction category would also serve as a nice alternative to Ebay since nobody is particularly thrilled with them any longer

I do think they need their own space though so they'll stand out better that way for everybody.

Leon · #28 06-05-2009, 12:14 PM

I almost have my mind made up to do this...however, if there is only 1 category for auctions won't there be too many to have it be effective for everyone? Can you imagine 30 auctions going at once, in one single type category? I am thinking of making the test category be the auction category.....for our Net54 auctions....the other auction category for ebay and other auctions (below) will stay the same....

barrysloate · #29 06-05-2009, 12:20 PM

Having 30 auctions going at once would be easily manageable. Prospective bidders could scroll through them in a couple of minutes and decide if there are any lots they wish to bid on.

What could get confusing is if those 30 lots had 30 different sets of rules. Do we need to set some guidelines on how these auctions should be run?

Leon · #30 06-05-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Having 30 auctions going at once would be easily manageable. Prospective bidders could scroll through them in a couple of minutes and decide if there are any lots they wish to bid on.

What could get confusing is if those 30 lots had 30 different sets of rules. Do we need to set some guidelines on how these auctions should be run?

Rules- Not sure this will be easy. I almost think that each thread (I will make a rule of only 1 at a time per member) has to have it's own rules. I need to be back to my regular job in the near future more than I am at it today and just can't manage all of that. I will also reserve the right to shut the auction project down if it gets out of hand.....or if it gets too complicated or there are too many problems...not necessarily in that order.

barrysloate · #31 06-05-2009, 12:41 PM

One aspect of this worth discussing is if the seller is not happy with the final bid, can he pull the lot and not sell it? Because if this is not clearly stated going in, there is going to be an awful lot of bad blood on the BST.

Leon · #32 06-05-2009, 12:56 PM

Anyone that is logged in can see that I am testing some new things. Not to worry Matt got a fresh back up yesterday so God forbid I blow this darn thing up we can go back to where it was yesterday

deadballera · #33 06-05-2009, 12:58 PM

Sellers should post a minimum bid of what the rock bottom price would be accepted. I don't think pulling a card or lot would be fair for any bidders if it did not meet the expectations.

Keep it simple for everyone..and there will be less bad blood.

shammus · #34 06-05-2009, 01:07 PM

Barry,

That's a good point and something I mentioned a little earlier on. I guess we'd need to figure out a way to keep people from dropping out of the transaction when they're disappointed with the final price.

It also seems that we'd need to regulate this a little closer than we would normal BST pages. Right now, everyone just sort of chooses their own rules but it seems that we'll need to come up with a consistant format to prevent confusion.

barrysloate · #35 06-05-2009, 01:12 PM

Hey Brian- stating the rules in advance could be the key. I think there is a strong possibility that a good many sticky situations might occur that will need the moderator dude (what's his name?) to intercede and resolve. We certainly don't need fighting going on over there.

Leon · #36 06-05-2009, 01:18 PM

The banner ads don't pay enough for me to pay my bills. I need far more than a million dollars a year which is all the paltry ads pay me

....So we now have the place to do auctions....Ya'll come up with some good rules and we will do 1 sticky for them, in that forum and I really can't/don't want to moderate it anymore than I do the regular BST now....Hope this helps.....I have to say this would have been almost impossible on the old board.

Adam · #37 06-05-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shammus

[we] need to figure out a way to keep people from dropping out of the transaction when they're disappointed with the final price.

That is the most important "rule" for any Net 54 auction.

If a person is not willing to sell something to the highest bidder, then that person should not be using an auction format to sell their item. There is inherent risk that comes along with selling something by auction. Selling via an auction is not for a risk averse person. The whole underlying theory behind a true auction is something is sold to the highest bidder, at whatever price the highest bidder bids!

If somone insists on using the auction format and is NOT willing to sell their auction item unless the price reaches a specific level, then they should be required to SPECIFY AN OPENING BID AMOUNT in their initial auction posting that is equal to the lowest amount they will sell the item for. It is not fair to do it any other way. A seller should not waste a bidder's time.

mybuddyinc · #38 06-05-2009, 01:47 PM

Being the "Dutch Auction Kid," I thought I'd respond.................

Following Frank's BST auction attempt, I thought I'd give it a try, with a "fun" twist. I think it has been fun, and has interest, and might catch on as an option in the BST realm.

I do also agree with the BUMP issue, and never really thought about it until is was brought to light. I agree it does seem a bit unfair. I have bumped my recent auction for the last time (although I will keep reducing price until remaining 3 cards are sold).

So, if there is a feeling that auction are going to rise on net54, then I agree a separate category would be the answer.

(man, my first semi-confrontational post

kinda' got a tingly feeling all over. Maybe next time I'll call someone a jerk

))))

FrankWakefield · #39 06-05-2009, 02:12 PM

Adam, when I mention in my auction

"I'll let you guys bid on it for a while. If/when it gets up to where I'm willing to let it sell, I'll contact the high bidder to let them suggest a convenient closing day and time for him. I'll post that day and time, and clearly state the time zone."

Then it is obvious that I'm not selling the card for a one cent bid. I agree that anyone attempting an auction needs to think it through and specify what's going on and how it will work. I'm satisfied with my format, once I clearly stated how it would end and the time zone...

So for me I won't get into a position where I'd be forced to sell when I didn't want to sell. (Guess I shouldn't use that word sell, it sounds like that 's' word that is part of BST, or maybe the selling of the card is what happens after an auction?) I think we may be done with auctions...

Leon · #40 06-05-2009, 02:18 PM

http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19

As ya'll can see there is a new auction section to use if folks want to? If no one cares to do them it will take about 2 seconds to delete it. I moved the test threads to a new test forum which is right under the golf section......regards

prestigecollectibles · #41 06-05-2009, 02:24 PM

Can't the auctions run like The Trader Speaks ads back in the 70s and 80s?
You list your items for auction and the bidders would mail their top bids however in this case they would email them.
The seller would state when the auction ends and the bidder with the highest bid will be notified by the seller as the winner.
One post per seller however the seller can list multiple items in the post.
Just a thought.

Rob D. · #42 06-05-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19

As ya'll can see there is a new auction section to use if folks want to? If no one cares to do them it will take about 2 seconds to delete it. I moved the test threads to a new test forum which is right under the golf section......regards

I think I read somewhere -- at least three times -- that one Net54er isn't doing any more auctions. Someone please do the right thing, make him happy and plead with him to have a change of heart.

Leon, is the new auction section that you provided a link to in the B/S/T section or somewhere else? I'm not seeing it but might not be looking in the right place.

iggyman · #43 06-05-2009, 02:26 PM

I would be willing to act as a shill bidder for a small fee.

This will solve the current dilemma we are having with auctions selling too low. My main qualification is the few lots I won over the years in the Mastro auctions.

Lovely Day...

FYI: Of course, I am just kidding!

Leon · #44 06-05-2009, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob D.

I think I read somewhere -- at least three times -- that one Net54er isn't doing any more auctions. Someone please do the right thing, make him happy and plead with him to have a change of heart.

Leon, is the new auction section that you provided a link to in the B/S/T section or somewhere else? I'm not seeing it but might not be looking in the right place.

ok....it's now in the BST section.....

Rob D. · #45 06-05-2009, 02:53 PM

Thanks, Leon.

Anthony S. · #46 06-05-2009, 03:22 PM

Seeing as I was one of the individuals who requested a separate section for auctions, I just put my money where my mouth is and listed the first card in the new auction section. I think auctions will be a very enjoyable addition to the site. Thus ends the pimping portion of the proceedings.

canjond · #47 06-05-2009, 04:13 PM

For anyone who may want to conduct auctions on Net54, I would be willing to list the card, as a NEt54 auctioneer, on the B/S/T for you... so you don't have to do the work yourself. My seller's commission is only 10%.

Leon · #48 06-05-2009, 04:39 PM

nice...I should have thought of that

buymycards · #49 06-05-2009, 05:00 PM

The buyer should send me the money for the auction and I will pay the seller - minus a small fee.

Send your payments to "payrick@aol.com

jmk59 · #50 06-05-2009, 05:15 PM

Nice job Leon. I think it's good to give it a dedicated section. If it outgrows one section, we can always add more. I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

I def agree that the seller should be able to set his own rules and that there not be a forum-specified format (with one exception below). If someone wants to do dutch, fine. Classic? Good. Silent? Fine. Let people do whatever they want. As long as all rules are clear and in the first post, why should we try to impose structure and our opinions?

Exception is that if there is any reserve at all, any circumstance under which the seller will back out, he needs to say it up front including the amount of any reserve. That will head a lot of potential problems off at the pass and minimize the need for Leon's involvement in disputes.

Other than that, let the board take care of it. It does just fine on the selling end - if someone does wrong on a transaction, we usually know about it, usually know both sides, and the market forces (such as they exist on this board) end up resolving the issue. Honest mistakes usually get a pass - hey, this isn't ebay where you just whack someone for shipping 24.5 hours after the auction closes - and wrongdoers end up getting unofficially blackballed by other members.

J