OT: Is Anyone Here Good At Vintage Jersey Authentication/Identification?

[btcarfagno]

Sorry about the off topic post. I posted this over at the Game Used section but I am not sure how many people are actually over there.




I purchased this at auction in 2011 hoping that it was a Newark Federal League uni. I have found some photos of the Newark uniform and there are many similarities, but one or two things that I am just not sure about. Not being a uniform collector, I do not know if the possible "problems" that I see are disqualifiers or not.

Here is the uniform:



Here is one of the best images I could find of the uniform:



For the good, the pinstriping looks the same, the collar area leading down to the button front looks the same, the lettering looks the same as well.

The problems that I see are twofold:

1. The positioning of the lettering on my uniform is quite a bit higher than on the jerseys in the photo. On mine, the "A" in Newark is above the second button on the jersey. In the photo, the second button is more like around the middle or bottom 2/3 of the "A".

2. Around the collar and heading down the front is a dark line coming down both sides of the neck. I am not sure if this would be considered to be twill or what it is...if it is even on the jersey or just darkness from the way the photos were taken back in 1915. Whatever it is, my jersey does not have it. However, I assume that this could come off as there is a "twill" area on the pants (that I also have) and some of the twill is separated from the pant making it look in those areas like it was never there to begin with.

So, I have this great question that I don't have an answer to and I am reaching out to anyone who might be able to help me out on it.

Many thanks!

Tom C

[WillBBC]

Very interesting. Can't wait to see how this breaks out.

Have you tried contacting Paul Lukas over at http://www.uni-watch.com/?

I've shot him an email here and there with some small questions and he's been great about responding. Hope you have some luck.

[Sean]

There seems to be no wear at all. This is a hundred year old jersey in such great condition?

But I'm no expert, so don't rely on me. Sorry.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Sean

There seems to be no wear at all. This is a hundred year old jersey in such great condition?

But I'm no expert, so don't rely on me. Sorry.

There is a decent amount of wear. Moth holes, staining (lots of it inside and out) even a team repair. I still hold out some hope that it coukd be a Fed League jersey, but I believe that there is a better chance that it comes from a minor league team of some sort. Still tracking down leads.

If anyone has any photos of the Newark Eagles I would love to know if there could be a possible match there.

Thank you for the input received so far. It is much appreciated.

Tom C

[steve B]

A couple thoughts, probably way off.

The ones in the old newspaper look like the W is right against the side of the button reinforcment. This one isn't. I'd the databse at the HOF seems to show the away uniforms as being the only ones with Newark on them Home had the N in a circle. So it probably should be gray, but the database shows the away as very light, so maybe white?

Since the team moved from Indianapolis and Indy used similar uniforms maybe they reused them? If they did there might be signs of other lettering.

Unless it was unused in 14 and madeup for one of the new players for 15. If it was done later that might explain the mismatch of the exact letter location.

Totally crazy thought

Newark had a player in 1916, Rupert Mills who was local and had legal training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Mills

Since his contract required him to show up and be in uniform, he did.

I can't help but think that a defunct team might not supply him with a uniform, especially if it meant they had to pay him too. And if he bought his own, it would probably not be an exact match.

Does it have any Provenance?

Steve B

[bmarlowe1]

You might contact archivist P.at. .Kelly at HoF and ask about Newark FL team or player photos. They will charge you something, but it may be worth it if they have some clear images.

[ngrow9]

I'm not an expert authenticator, so I could be wrong, but unfortunately I'm pretty sure it's not a FL uni. Marc Okkonen's pictorial history of the league (published through SABR back in 1989) has a Newark team photo, in which the Newark lettering appears to be quite a bit lighter in color than the black stirrup socks worn by the players (i.e., not the dark black in the uniform here). Also, none of the photos show the black band around the color that your model features. Interest piece, though.

[btcarfagno]

Thank you again everyone.

The lettering is definitely black. One other issue against its possibly being a Newark Peps jersey is the stripes at the bottom of the sleeves. These most definitely seem original and if they once were black they are now very faded.

The Newark lettering, while seeming to be old, certainly does not have anywhere near the same wear. Entirely possible it is not original though it does not seem to me to be new either.

Are there any tell tale tale signs that show where stitching used to be on a jersey? If this is not the original lettering I would like to know what and where it was originally.

The lack of numbering, the presence oe the sun collar point to pre-1930. The quality of tge jersey points to pro as opposed to industrial or amateur.

Tom C

[jerseygary]

I'm currently away on a business trip so don't have access to my library, but how about these 3 options:

1. Newark was supposed to play in the 1916 Federal League. Could this be an unused uniform for 1916? Chances are probably not. The FL was in bad financial straits so the teams probably did not order any uniforms. It is definitly not a 1915 uniform since it does not match what they wore at home.

2. Newark minor league team? Newark Indians played until 1916 then were named the Bears after that. If I had my books I could see if this matches any of their uniforms but off-hand I don't recall anything similar. If someone has old Spalding or Reach guides they might have team pictures in them. The rub is pro team usually didn't have their city names on home jerseys.

3. A semi-pro or school team? Since the jersey is a white pinstripe with the city name on it, this makes me think it is not FL or Minor League since very rarely did teams put the city name on their home jerseys. Semi-pro and school teams did more often than pro teams. So this might be your answer.

Also, you can throw the Newark Eagles or Newark Dodgers out of the running, both Negro League teams are well documented and none had jerseys close to this.

If you want to go deep, the Newark Star-Ledger is still in existance and should have a good archive to go through. The jersey style should help you narrow down the timeframe and if there is labels inside that would help even more. The Newark historical society would be a great place to look as well as some of those photo books about the old days in Newark. There is even one on Newark Baseball, which I have but like I said I am away from home. If it doesn't get sorted out I'll look in a few weeks for you.

Good, luck, it sure is a nice jersey, what ever it is from.

[JollyElm]

I know you're worried about the vertical positioning of the "NEWARK" letters on your uniform, but if you look at the black and white photos you included, the one at top has a letter positioning much higher than the others shown. It is quite close to what your uniform shows. So there's obviously a disparity in letter positioning across some of these uniforms.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Thank you again everyone.


Are there any tell tale tale signs that show where stitching used to be on a jersey? If this is not the original lettering I would like to know what and where it was originally.

Tom C

Depending on how the stitching was done - Thread size, tightness, stitches per inch.... It often leaves a series of holes that could be visible from the inside. Not always, and if it's lightly done the weave of the cloth might settle back into place. It usually shows though, since a lot of letters were sewn on somewhat heavily.

One old dress my wife has shows a series of alterations done as the woman grew up. Originally made a long and hemmed shorter, as she got taller it was let out a bit, and the old seam hidden on the outside by strips of trim. Probably used for years since it's got 4 inches or more of alterations. (Plus alterations in the waist and chest area, obviously intended for years of use.)

Steve B

[btcarfagno]

Wanted to revisit this to see if anyone has some ideas for this. Not sure if more recent photos have come to light or more research on minor league Newark teams perhaps. It almost has to be a professional uniform as the quality is excellent.

This may be an away jersey, but the images I have seen show the away jersey being very light in color. Even the HOF dressed to the nines site shows the Peppers away jersey being very light in color. Not saying that is what this is. Just that it shouldn't be a disqualifier.

[perezfan]

The black sun collar and the lack of black piping running down the button line are unfortunately not a match.

Is there any remaining tagging in the inner collar, inner button line or inner tail? If so, please show it. That would reveal quite a lot in terms of where and when the jersey was made. There are databases that can pinpoint the age of the jersey based on the style of manufacturer's tagging.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The black sun collar and the lack of black piping running down the button line are unfortunately not a match.

Is there any remaining tagging in the inner collar, inner button line or inner tail? If so, please show it. That would reveal quite a lot in terms of where and when the jersey was made. There are databases that can pinpoint the age of the jersey based on the style of manufacturer's tagging.

Definitely no piping on the jersey. There is piping on the pants, and you can see on the inside of the jersey that there never was piping on it.

I took a picture of where the label used to be. The stitching measures 5.5 centimeters by 3.5 centimeters for each label. Pants are same label size as jersey.

Also took a picture of the armpit of the jersey which has an interesting vent area. Not sure if this might help to date the jersey at all based on when something like this might have been a part of manufactured jerseys.

Any help is greatly appreciated!