Was this W-517 a Fake?

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Posted By: Paul

This seller has had quite a few W-517s on ebay. They are all cut perfectly or nearly perfectly and have very clear photos. And most of them have been selling for well below market price. Do you think they are fake? Here's an example of the Lefty O'Doul.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330283214777&sspagenam e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&viewitem=&salenotsupported

The seller also had a graded Ruth and Gehrig, which lended a little bit of legitimacy to the others, but I still wonder. They are too perfect and too cheap.

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Posted By: jdrum

I sure hope not as I bought two. The wear doesn't really look staged but the scans aren't very clear. I'd be interested to hear what others say. Thanks.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

He doesn't accept returns.

His feedback is 97%

The photos of the cards aren't very good.

I'm not taking a chance on them. For you guys that did, I wish you well. Pay with Paypal through a credit card and hit it with a black light as soon as you get it. If it isn't real contact the guy and be ready to contact Paypal and your credit card company.

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Posted By: jdrum

Frank,

I sent him an e-m asking him to guarantee they were authentic. If he doesn't, I won't pay.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

From looking at the image he posts I'm uncertain as to the authenticity... And I saw the Gehrig in the SGC slab, it is a poor photo too. Could be real, could be a cracked slab with a reprint in there.

If he is serious about selling those he really needs better scans.

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Posted By: dennis

when i first saw these auctions i was(am) convinced that they are fake and that they even fooled sgc.(or are fakes in slabs) they just look like the last batch of fakes that were sold by a good seller and they fooled him (and i believe he refunded or did not deliver them to his buyers)what i remember about those was that they were all in that brown color as were most of these. as frank pointed out he has a graded gehrig and he also sold a ruth in a sgc slab. brad (lefty grove collector) had a grove he thought was fake and it had those big borders like the one hrbaker bought today. i guess brad did say he thought it was fake,but it did look "good". after a lot of thought i decided to not bid on about 6 cards inc. the grove. i really wanted the graded ruth he had but decided to pass as i still really think it's fake in a sgc slab.(maybe tampered) all that said, i ended up winning 2 of the cards at low prices(cy williams&f.lindstrom)so i'll decide when i get them. i did win this ruth tonite from a different seller.

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Posted By: Paul

When they arrive, take a magnifying glass and look at the cream colored borders under a magnifying glass. If the cream color is made up of tiny dots, they are fake.

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Posted By: dennis

thanks paul i will do that. here is the thread
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1182897386/Calling+All+W517+Experts...

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Just to veer off slightly - what's the story with the W-517's with the words on top, such as the pictured Ruth, above? Did only some players come out like that? Is the same player obtainable with and without the words on top? Relative scarcity? Are the mini's available with the words on top? Thanks.

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Posted By: jdrum

I traded a couple of e-mails with the seller tonight. He says that they are on consignment and that the owner would only spring for grading feees for the Ruth and Gehrig. It is bizarre though. Almost all of them were brown. He noted in his write up that the Paul Waner had red print along the bottom on the front and back. Some of them had the borders cut off. He had multiples of common players instead of the Hofers. In spite of no returns, I told him if they were fake he would be getting them back.

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Posted By: dennis

answers to ???s





- what's the story with the W-517's with the words on top, such as the pictured Ruth, above? Did only some players come out like that? all of the cards are available with baseball plays,players with the baseball plays are scarcer. Is the same player obtainable with and without the words on top? yes Are the mini's available with the words on top? minis are very scarce in general and i have not seen any with the baseball plays. with color variations and baseball plays variations i doubt there is a complete master set but i'm sure someone is working on one.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Thank you, Dennis. It's appreciated.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Bob, the theory on W517's is that they were part of a game where you purchased a strip of 3 for a price and if the bottom card in the strip had a colored line on back then you won a prize (different prizes available depending on the color of the strip). I have a Goslin with the color band on back, I will try to get a scan up later. Only the bottom most card in a strip of 3 would exhibit these markings, easy to spot as it should only have the top border trimmed with the bottom factory cut.

My theory (no evidence to support this) is that the same game was played with these cards but instead of using the band on back they remade the cards and the top card in the strip would have a play on it, if you "Struck Out" you didn't win, if you got a "Single", etc. you probably won a prize. Every card with the writing on top is the top-most card in the strip (ie it should be a factory cut above the words).

Play at top variety (note factory cut at top, hand-cut at bottom):


-Rhett

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here is the Goslin with the stripe on back. Not sure what the red stripe won you but I assume it was a candy bar or something along those lines.

-Rhett

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Interesting stuff, Rhett. Thanks!!

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Posted By: leon

for reference....nice thread....

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Posted By: boxingcardman

But these are so much harder to find that my sample size is relatively small. I've never seen an uncut strip, either, of the minis.

Here is a point to ponder, though: The W517 and Exhibit PC back sets share images and more important, share the handwriting on the legends on their fronts. There are some corresponding movie sets as well. The movie sets have four "sizes": the PC back Exhibit, a W517-sized larger strip card, a small W517 mini strip card, and a narrower mini card that came single but with a tab attached to the bottom. I wonder if there were minis issued in both mini formats. The reason I ask is that of the minis I have, one of them appears to be narrower than the others, as is the case with the tabbed mini movie card.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Bob C

Here is a real one.

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Posted By: dennis

i got the cards and i could not see any dot pattern in the borders. there is wear that did not show up in the sellers scans. the borders are not aged like some 517's and are off white and not yellowed. they have a grey cardboard back. the cards have a dot pattern in the # area (but i think all the 517s do).the surrounding line does not have a dot pattern and is solid. my mag glass is not very strong so i assume if i see dot pattern on the card i would also see this pattern in the borders if they are fake? it appears the seller left some $$ on the table with no return policy/low feedback/bad scans. i have to assume they are real and the ones scg graded were from the same batch. if i can get my scanner working i can do a large scan.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I bought a few of these also (fortunately at only $5 each).
I can't find my loupe, but what bothers me is the gray
cardstock. All the others I've seen have a yellowish back.
Does anybody know if any were printed on a gray cardstock?
I also bought a few of his Kashins and they look legit.
Thanks,
- Dave

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Posted By: Steve F

Two of mine are grey. The other two are a brownish, lighter color. They are real and slabbed. No two W517's are alike. There are so many variations it will make your head spin.

Also, I believe this seller's stuff is authentic.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Thanks Steve. That makes me feel somewhat better.

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Posted By: JohnV

Frank mentioned looking at the cards with a black light. Can someone tell us more about using black lights? What would we look for?
John

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Posted By: dennis

i had some w517s that i sold on this board and they had grey backs and if they weren't real believe me i would have heard about it. what steve said is very true about the stock and backs.all strip cards in general have stock and back variances,not to mention reverse images and color variances.

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Posted By: Dave Williams

For Boxingcardman,

I measured about 10 movie mini's I've got, they are the same size as the baseball mini's.

They are all 43mm (1 22/32 wide) and 66 mm (2 19/32 tall). The height was determined
because a couple have dotted lines on top and bottom.

I don't know if this gives you new information or not.

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Posted By: dennis

johnv.... post world war 2 cards will fluoresce under blacklight cards b4 the war, won't.

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Posted By: JohnV

Thanks Dennis. I need to try it and see. Sorry for going off topic
J

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Posted By: boxingcardman

That is consistent with the main strip-type movie cards and W517 minis. The tab style movie cards are narrower. Here is a link to some further information on them:

http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/interestingexhibitcards

check out image #133.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc