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#1
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jay
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#2
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: barrysloate
Why did you provide this link? |
#3
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Aaron Conyers
Looks like a problem with the bottom of the card. |
#4
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
Barry- it's a nice card and good question. |
#5
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
is the whole darn bottom trimmed off? |
#6
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: barrysloate
You're right- the whole bottom is trimmed off. Now I see why it was posted. My skill in spotting these things is on a par with a PSA grader! |
#7
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
What is left is good... |
#8
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: joe
How does this get a numeric grade when it is trimmed? |
#9
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Joe, a better question would be why do folks put much faith at all in graded cards when their own skill at ascertaining authenticity and condition is or should be greater. What happens here is that someone sees the slab and starts out assuming that the card is all there. That assumption would not have happened had the card been in its original, unslabbed state. (I don't care for the term 'raw', it carries with it an implication that there is more to be done to the card, like one might cook it or something. I think 'original unslabbed' is more accurate, since these cards weren't distributed slabbed.) |
#10
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: barrysloate
Frank- an even better question is why can't a professional grading service do a better job? You wouldn't allow your doctor or lawyer or accountant to do such sloppy work, so why can't cards be graded with greater efficiency and fewer errors? It's not brain surgery, and if you spend the proper amount of time with each card you can get ever so close to 100% accuracy. |
#11
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
I am not making excuses for PSA but your doctor or lawyer or accountant doesn't make the wages the regular graders make.... |
#12
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: barrysloate
That's a good point and I maintain you get what you pay for. Cards can be submitted in bulk for roughly $8-10 per card, sometimes less. And maybe that's too cheap. If they charged more, it's possible they could spend more time with each card. |
#13
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: paulstratton
That is beyond bad. PSA should hit the BIN and get this card out of circulation. |
#14
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jeff Prizner
does that holder look frosty? |
#15
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Preece1
Leon, |
#16
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I'm with Jeff here...it's too easy to monkey with these slabs. I wouldn't blame PSA just yet. |
#17
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Rob D.
Jeff makes a valid point. Of course, the counterpoint would be that PSA -- and all grading companies, for that matter -- should be using tamper-proof holders. |
#18
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: paulstratton
You're right Jeff. They make it so easy sometimes though. I have no clue about the frosting deal, only what I've read from Saucier. |
#19
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
Maybe you need to read what I wrote. I said I wasn't defending PSA...Also, I don't think, from looking at the holder and the buyer etc...that this is a problem holder except most likely PSA made another mistake...just my opinion from what I see. There is no excuse for this error if it is one.. |
#20
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: ali_lapoint
this card doesn't come up very often. in fact, i have never seen one. are you guys sure it has the ad bottom? i know that may sound like a dumb question but it may be that the card wasn't issued with the ad bottom for one reason or another. |
#21
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Ali, The bottom ad has been cut off. No doubt about it. |
#22
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jeff Prizner
that holder doesn't look bad to you Leon? doesn't look too good to me. |
#23
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
No, it doesn't |
#24
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jeff Prizner
stole this PSA graded OJ scan off ebay as a holder comparison, this I would feel comfortable bidding on, the Kelly holder I would not. Sure, there may be some perfectly good cards in frosty holders for whatever reason, but it's a big red flag and combined with the fact the card if cut, I personally think PSA deserves the benefit of the doubt. |
#25
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: paulstratton
How many of these have graded a "2" on the pop report? |
#26
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: barrysloate
Pat- you are correct that we are entitled to a much higher standard of professionalism. However, one thing that is clear is PSA is swamped with submissions and don't spend enough time looking at each card. And the faster a card is run through the system, the more likely that a mistake will be made. By charging more they could conceivably spend more time examining and come up with a better product. |
#27
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Todd Schultz
Unbelievable. |
#28
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: paulstratton
Also, if you look closely, whatever he took the photo against makes it looks worse. Not saying it isn't cracked, but the background isn't solid like the other scan you provided. |
#29
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: bigfish
AWFUL. |
#30
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Gilbert
The last 3 SGCs which I cracked out were quite difficult to do. |
#31
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Anthony S.
I've been busting the vast majority of my graded cards out of their holders the past few weeks (while listening to the theme song from "Born Free") and the PSA holders end up looking exactly like that N172 Kelly's holder when I'm done with them. |
#32
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: fkw
Not the first heavily trimmed card in a PSA slab. Ive seen a couple but could only find one of the scans (I have a few dozen scans of extremely stupid screwups on their part) |
#33
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Bruce Babcock
PSA. Aren't they the guys who saved the "hobby" with their skill at detecting "evidence of trimming?" I'd be willing to give PSA the benefit of the doubt - if this didn't happen so often. |
#34
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: barrysloate
It shouldn't happen at all. Small and hard to detect mistakes will happen, but ones of this magnitude should not. |
#35
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: boxingcardman
My recollection is that this card was sold in a Lipset auction some years ago with Lew's wry note that the card bottom was trimmed off but PSA still graded it. My catalogs are at the office. Anyone wanna search their archives for the auction? |
#36
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
No excuse for the mistake and no excuse for even the thought that the holder has been played with. PSA won't provide a better holder because it will cost them 1 cent extra per slab and that cannot be tolerated by a company whose stock price is about 1/3 as high as it was 9 years ago. |
#37
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Steve Dawson
The seller has added a paragraph to the listing saying that the bottom of the card has obviously been cut off, but he believes PSA thought it was a "factory miscut", as opposed to a later trimming. |
#38
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jay
My opinion is that the card not only had the bottom ad trimmed off but that it was also trimmed on the sides and possibly at the top. For comparison sake take a look at some of the Kellys on Dave Levin's site. |
#39
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: jeffdrum
Todd and Jeff you hit the nail right on the head. PSA has had ample time to improve its holder since the WIWAG fiasco - obviously it has not been a priority, so that excuse doesn't wash. They are a grading mill plain and simple! |
#40
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Anonymous
you may be correct sir...this card was issued with a coupon for cigarettes and PSA should have listed this card "sans coupon"..... |
#41
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
all I can say is "wow" to their amendment.... |
#42
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jay
Mr Anonymous:The card was not issued with a coupon for cigarettes. The card came with an ad for Goodwin & Co., the cards issuer, at the bottom. |
#43
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: scott dango
thats what i meant....sorry...you knew what i meant |
#44
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: scott dango
look at these 2 cards to see the variation that exists.... |
#45
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: david
yes it is impossible to tell if 1/4 inch of a card is missing if you are a psa grader. for everyone else is is obvious |
#46
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: leon
Scott D...the folks in this thread are who the grading companies call to consult with when they have a question. The newer example of Clarkson that is shown might have been handcut at inception or it might have been trimmed later. The original post example shouldn't be in any numeric holder; if numeric means unaltered. It's really that simple...As far as I know the factory would put their advertising on them to advertise. Could the ad have been trimmed off by the original owner? I suppose....Also, it would be nice to see the edges in person, on the Clarkson. I have a Yum Yum with a wavy cut and a numerical grade and feel it's legit, so I do think they can happen...Others know more than I do about these so I will defer to their expertise if I said something incorrectly but those are my thoughts... |
#47
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: quan
psa is pretty bad at the whole card grading thing these days and don't need any help in butchering cards...but the slab on this kelly looks cloudy as hell, plus in all his previous auctions the seller scanned his $20 cards where his took grainy digi pics of his $2k+ kelly here. that whole story about psa graders comparing this with 3 other ojs don't add up either as the surrounding certs have 60s topps and some comic cards. maybe he got a vip tour of the grading process who knows...meh no strong case either way so color me 50/50 on who to assign blame. |
#48
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
So the fraudster who popped the slab, pulled out the good Kelly and slipped this trimmed one in just happened to have another Kelly lying around (albeit a trimmed one)? Seems unlikely, right? |
#49
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Scott Dango
if you look at the scans of the back of these two cards on ebay, they do not looked trimmed....the wear facets and overall aging of the card seems to be consistent with the exisiting edges... |
#50
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Kelly Old Judge on Ebay
Posted By: Steve Dawson
Scott, |
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