Beware of this guy

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Posted By: Tony III

I recently bought a T206 PSA 6 Walter Johnson from Blueclawblue on ebay and I sent the card in to be reviewed by PSA and I got a call from them stating the card had been swapped out and was really a PSA 2.

The guys name is Eric Mutter from NJ and he current does not have anything for sale, but he typically advertises saying the name of the card and PSA, but does not list the grade on the title, but does list it in the heading.

What do you think a PSA 2 is worth or should I break it open and sell it as a raw card. I really don't think it looks like a 2.

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Posted By: Jason L

this card was a lower than you expected condition card in a PSA slab and you sent it in for a half-grade bump?

Did you suspect that the case had been tampered with when you received it?

PSA saying it was a 2 - that was their new official opinion of the card? and it was simply in a PSA 6 case.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding...

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Posted By: rob

I bought several cards from him without a problem. Did you send the card in because it looked suspicious? If so, you should have contacted the seller abou the item. I agree with the previous poster, why did you send the card in?

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Posted By: Tony III

When I bought the card, I did not look at it, as it was around the holidays. I did not get a chance to look at it until recently. I noticed the holder was not 100% right, so I sent it in to be re-holdered and they said they review all cards that get re-holdered, to check for this type of situation.

I was just past the 90th day of purchase, so ebay bascially said SORRY.

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Posted By: Matt

Do you have scans of the card?

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Posted By: Tony III

My son has my digital camera and is in Vegas for the weekend. I will post scans Monday for sure.

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Posted By: rob

As much as that sucks for you, its possible he sells many cards and did not notice. Or, he noticed and screwed you in which case your delay to review the card will go down as a crappy lesson learned. sorry, either way, it sucks to feel taken.

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Posted By: rob

Have you attempted to contact the seller? I know you feel taken advantage of, but its not exactly fair to "out" this guy as some sort of crook without going down all the avenues to resolve the issue. As I said before, maybe he did not notice.

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Posted By: Matt

Tony - was there no scan in the original listing? I'm just trying to wrap my head around buying a EX-NM that is actually a 2. Was there some hidden paper loss?

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Posted By: Sean BH

Here is the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330180053525

The left side of the slab is pretty frosty.



sdbh

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Posted By: Matt

Sean - good find. Interested to hear what the flaw is with the card.

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Posted By: Tony III

I did e-mail the guy and he bascially said, Sorry since the card has been taken out of the case and re-graded I can not help you.

The scan of the original card was ok, but did not show the back of the card, which appers to have minor paper loss. I will post a scan next week and let everyone be the judge.

I know I screwed up majorly and will never buy a graded card off of ebay again without fully looking at it right away and sending it to PSA for re-verification. My loss will hopefully help someone out there not get screwed by shady sellers on ebay.

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Posted By: Sean BH

I'm guessing it has back damage or a huge crease? It looks good in the scan, and only seems OC?

Have you tried to talk to the seller?

sdbh

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Posted By: rob

He is certainly under no obligation to help you, but it would have been nice if he offered a partial refund or something to take some responsibility. I am just not sure he is necessarily a bad guy, this is a tough sitchie.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Is it just me or does the flip look "wavy", too? Wonder if it got some "extra handling" during the "possible" slab crack/reseal.

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Posted By: Anonymous

.

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Posted By: Tony III

Sean,
Thanks for finding the auction item#. I tried to type the item# in, but could not get it to appear.

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Posted By: Shawn

OOOOH no paypal.... Fishy Fishy

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Man, that's some serious coin for a 2. Not sure that I would take it lying down.

There's a lesson to be learned here but I'm sure you already know that.

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Posted By: Tony III

I really don't want to take it lying down, but what can I do.
I live in CA and he lives in NJ. I can show up at his door and ask to talk to him, but even if I get my money back, I am out the plane ticket and other travel costs.

I messed up really bad, but can't really do anything about it.

What do you all think a PSA 2 is worth, or should I sell it as a raw card?

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Posted By: Sean BH

I would think depending on the back damage a nice 2 would bring $500.

So did PSA tell you the slab was compromised and they crossed it over to a 2?

I did notice for all his baseball cards they sold with no paypal.

sdbh

Editied to add scans of previous auction cards:

Not sure if PSA slabs have frosty edges or it's just the camera?

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Posted By: Tony III

Yes, PSA re-holdered it as a PSA 2. I got a call from the Ops Mgr, really cool guy, and did say the card was not a 6, but a 2. They said they reviewed the card about a year ago. I guess it was in their data base somehow.

Well, I guess my cost of tuition is going to be $1,500

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Posted By: Tony III

If he sold those cards also, I would question them also.

I would have never questioned the holder had it not been for this forum. I only joined a few months ago, that how I noticed the holder not being 100% clear.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

would be awfully interesting to somehow be able to find out whose name was on the PSA submission slip when they graded it a year ago.

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Posted By: PC

"I sent the card in to be reviewed by PSA and I got a call from them stating the card had been swapped out and was really a PSA 2."

This isn't a case of PSA changing its mind on the grade, PSA confirmed that the card was switched. And the fact the seller wouldn't take PayPal for only this auction confirms that the seller either did it or knew about it.

The fact that 90 days has passed is irrelvant outside of eBay. Call the local police deaprtment where the seller lives. They will assign someone to investigate (but it might be months before you get any answers). You might also fill out a mail fraud complaint with the post office.

Keep in mind that you also have PSA backing you up here -- they can confirm that you sent a PSA 6 Johnson portrait to them, and that they believe the card was swapped out of the holder. You also have the scan from the auction showing the same card in the frosted holder (before you won it).

Just be sure to tell the seller you are on to him, and let him know what you are going to do. Give him a chance to come clean and give your money back.

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Posted By: Jim VB

VCP says the last five PSA 2's averaged just over $500 (nice guess sean!). The last five PSA 6's were just over $2800.

If it had been a 6, you got a great deal.

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Posted By: Matt

How significant is the paper loss? Is it possible he sold the card and didn't see the paper loss?
If he saw the paperloss and didn't disclose it and sold that as a 6 without a back scan, I think the seller should bear the burden. Whether the seller did the switch or not would be immaterial.

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Posted By: Tony III

I just sent the seller another e-mail based on PC's recommendation, so lets see what he comes back with.

I take a picture of the back and post it Monday.
Thanks everyone for your input and help.

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Posted By: fkw

The Tinker and Chance look like 2-3 to me. Not 4s

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Posted By: howard

I'd like to see scans of the card in the original holder and the new holder side by side. If it is clearly the same card then I agree with PC, the matter should be reported to the appropriate authorities.

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Posted By: Scott Levy

It appears totally wavy and almost like it was disconnected and re-attached. I know that labels can come loose, but this just doesn't look right to me.

The bright side is that the card happens to be a heck of a nice looking '2'. I assume that there's some paper loss on the back but would think that you could get at least $500 for it (heck, if it doesn't have paper loss or a crease.....send me an email) !

FWIW, I'm always wary of people that refuse to take paypal unless I know them or they are part of Net54.

Regards,
SGL

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Posted By: Scott Levy

It appears totally wavy and almost like it was disconnected and re-attached. I know that labels can come loose, but this just doesn't look right to me.

The bright side is that the card happens to be a heck of a nice looking '2'. I assume that there's some paper loss on the back but would think that you could get at least $500 for it (heck, if it doesn't have paper loss or a crease.....send me an email) !

FWIW, I'm always wary of people that refuse to take paypal unless I know them or they are part of Net54.

Regards,
SGL

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Posted By: fkw

Q?

Was the flip switched...... or was the card switched?

Have PSA tell you exactly what they found wrong with the holder. Was it just cracked on the top or side or was the whole thing taken apart and then resealed? I think it would be easier to slide a flip inside the tampered holder rather than a card.

In the back of my mind I think maybe PSA might have messed up (didnt see paper lose) and the card was overgraded by them originally and now they are trying to be more strict and regraded it far lower. ?????

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Posted By: JK

"And the fact the seller wouldn't take PayPal for only this auction confirms that the seller either did it or knew about it."

Not accepting paypal does not confirm that the seller knew about it or did it. It might create an inference if this was the only card that he refused paypal on, but according to other posts above, he does not accept paypal on any card sales. BTW - many legit sellers refuse to accept paypal now.

PSA also only confirmed that the slab had been cracked and resealed - not that this seller was responsible.

He very well may be responsible, but you should have better proof than that before calling someone a thief.

Now, as far as not showing a scan of the back when it has paperloss and its graded a psa 6 - I do have a problem with that.

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Posted By: Tony III

When I talked with the Ops Mgr, he said the holder was opened up and was resealed. The card was the one that was removed and put back in.

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Posted By: PC

Josh -- the post above that was edited said all the other sales allowed PayPal, but not this one. I went and looked at the seller's completed auctions ... only one, and he took PayPal for that.

I was assuming there were numerous other PayPal auctions, but given the seller's response, the fact that the only other auction he ran had PayPal (not a cheap item either), and what PSA said about the holder, I would have been in contact with the police already.

Certainly not enough to convict the guy, but there's enough indicia of foul play here to justify Tony starting to make the seller's life difficult, and to get his money back.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

there is a chance that he got the hose and passed it along .It is way too fishy to exonerate him totally. In life we make many misstakes and wish we could do them over .My only advice is take longer looks at the average 6 because they look a heck of alot better then that.

Good luckhttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203742889.JPG

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Posted By: David Smith

Having just watched a couple of CSI:Miami shows back to back, maybe you should keep the holder and talk to the Police. If the seller cracked the case open and either changed the slip or the card then maybe he left a fingerprint on the INSIDE of the holder or on the slip and THAT would be hard to explain away.

In the early 1990's, when the shiny stuff was at it's peak and insert cards were first appearing, I went to a large flea market and traded some cards for a supposedly unopened box of cards. The guy I traded the cards to made a big deal about my cards not being worth too much and that he couldn't really give me much for them because they would be hard to sell. So, he wanted $10 dollars along with my cards. I knew the cards were salable and would bring more than what this guy was getting for his "unopened" boxes but they would just take some time to do so. So, I offered him my cards and $5 bucks and he accepted.

I took the box home and started opening packs. After just a few packs, I noticed no star cards. After a few more packs, I noticed the number of cards I was pulling out of each pack sometimes differed. I opened the rest of the packs and there were NO star cards OR insert cards, even though there should have been at least one in the box, if not more.

I started looking at the wrappers and smelling them. They smelled of model glue, like the Testors type that I used to glue models together with as a kid. On one of the wrappers was a fingerprint which was left in some of the glue residue. I took that wrapper back to the flea market, along with the rest of the wrappers, the cards and the box and confronted the jerk. He said he didn't do it and that this must have been done at the store where he bought the cards. Funny thing though, he had a LOT of star and insert cards he was offering to sell.

I made a HUGE stink and had a lot of people looking his direction. Finally the Manager of the flea market came over with a security guard and wanted to know what was going on. I told him the story and showed him the box, wrappers and the fingerprint in the glue. The Manager suggested to the guy he give me my cards back. The guy said he couldn't do that because he had already sold some of them (this after only a few hours and him telling me they would be hard to sell).

After a little more time, all three of us worked it out so that I got some of my cards back and $10 dollars and he got the box, wrappers and cards back which he traded me. The Manager also immediately kicked the guy out of the building and said he was banned from ever selling at his flea market again and that if I saw him there, to report him and he would be escorted off the premises.

I know I lost some money but it wasn't that big of a deal considering the jerk got booted and prevented from selling at a large flea market ever again. The bad thing is, I turned over the evidence I had. I should have just called the Police and pressed charges and used the fingerprint in the glue as evidence. Oh well.

David

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Posted By: Miguel Danielson

David,

I was interested to see your story as I have just come across my first pack re-sealer on eBay. I should have known better -- feedback on the guy was less than 98%, a couple of the negative feedbacks mentioned opened packs, and the seller did not accept paypal. Nevertheless, I had had good luck before in buying from those who don't accept paypal, but I guess they never had the feedback issues.

So, my box arrives about 1.5 months after winning the bid, and an alleged story about the box getting returned to the seller for a bad address (yeah right!). The box is badly worn and all of the packs are severely bent for some reason. After closer inspection, the entirety of the back of the packs is covered in a brush-like texture. I believe this is from a technique of using hot wax and brushing it over the pack of the packs to seal -- I compare to some of my other older Topps packs and of course their seal marks are very small and distinct. Furthermore, I notice that all of the wrappers are very loose on the packs -- other wrappers I have are very tight. I open one pack and notice that there is only a tiny wax stain on the back card (this is from was from the re-sealing, seeping through the pack), and there is no gum stain whatsoever on the gum facing card (this suggests that it has not been exposed to the gum for more than the weeks or months since the guy resealed the packs).

In any event, I'm a few days shay of the 60 day window to protest through eBay, but I'm counting on them not being any help whatsoever. I am an attorney and one of my hobbies is to go after companies and people that rip off others and think they will always get away with it. Therefore, I am not considering the best course of action. I believe they I will call the local police where the seller lives and tell them what is going on and that a string of frauds appears to be involved. However, I am wondering if I should send a pack in to PSA or GAI to have it returned as tampered with. I also wonder whether law enforcement would actually be willing to do what they need to do to catch this guy (namely, search his house for the re-sealing equipment and evidence of re-sealed packs in progress). I could also file a civil law suit against the guy in his home jurisdiction, but this would likely require travel there (or obtaining local counsel, which would be expensive). This actually makes me wonder if there are any attorneys here from Richmond, VA, who might want to participate.

Bringing this back to the original topic, I have often thought it would be nice to have a discussion on what options are available when someone has been demonstrably defrauded over eBay. If one has evidence, then the offense is automatically federal because of the use of the postal service, so it would seem there are very good tools to use. However, I wonder about the receptiveness of the Postal Inspector or others at the federal level, where the fraud is not something traditional like credit card scams, identity theft, and the like. Swapping cards out of a PSA holder or opening and re-sealing packs of cards seems like something that some bureaucrat somewhere may have a lot of difficulty in wrapping their heads around.

Has anyone had a good experience in a hobby-specific fraud case and the local or federal authorities? For the lawyers in the group, have you thought out a game plan for the instance where you one day get ripped off via eBay?

Regards,
Miguel

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Posted By: Mike S

The biggest problem with Ebay is the buyer and seller are normally thousands of miles away. Pursuing legal avenues is a real hassel considering the distance. Ebay and Paypal are hit and miss on assisting these type of situations, and generally the person on the short-end of the stick eventually just throws their hands up and moves on with life. Even in this case involving a $2,000 transaction, Tony wants is leaning towards cutting his losses and moving on.

One of the biggest advantages of posting such problems on this forum is it often times forces someone to do the right thing that normally wouldn't simply because of the publicity. I would hope that will be the case here. The card is obviously not a PSA 6, and is close to a MC qualifier.

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Posted By: Bob

Whenever I list a card for sale on ebay I always make it a practice to have a scan of both front and back of the card. That said I think that a seller selling a PSA 6 slabbed card has no duty, per se, to show a back scan. I have been burned before on back damage on graded cards with no back scans so I make a point to ask for a back scan or at least have the seller reveal if there is any staining, writing or paper loss and then keep the email until I receive the card and can check. I have learned the hard way.
It seems like more and more PSA 5s and 6s and SGC 50s and 40s are popping up with paper damage/loss on the back. PSA I expect, but I was surprised to see some SGC cards with paper loss in these grades as the cards I have submitted, no matter how nice the fronts, plunge down to 20 with even slight back damage as have the cards of others who have posted here on this board.

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Posted By: Steve

The seller made a bogus claim IMO.

Just because the card was re graded as a 2 has no bearing on the sale.

He sold you a card that PSA claims was slipped into a 6 slab.

I would tell him that.

I would also notify his local police department and insist that it be noted into the blotter.

Good Luck.


Steve

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Posted By: Tony III

Here is the response from the seller of the card when I told him that I was going to contact the local police in his area regarding the matter.


"I'm sorry, but I have the pictures of the card I mailed and it clearly shows it is not a "2." The card I mailed is a legit "6."
No one would look at the card I mailed and claim it to be an "excellent card" as you yourself did-if it was a "2."
Either a "2" was inserted after I mailed the card (not accusing you) or you're issue is with PSA as to their grading. The fact that this transaction is over 3 months old and you chose to have a card regraded and are not satisfied is not a matter that I can help with. You're issue is with PSA, if they graded the card I mailed as a "2."
I am a retired police officer, so please, no more threatening emails with attempts to extort."

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Posted By: dennis

it's kind of hard to believe that you would buy a card for almost $2000.00 and not carefully look it over when it arrived.

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Posted By: Steve

In the back of my mind I think maybe PSA might have messed up (didnt see paper lose) and the card was overgraded by them originally and now they are trying to be more strict and regraded it far lower. ?????


Oh c'mon.


Steve

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Posted By: dennis

steve i agree...ooooppps the graders never err.

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Posted By: Steve

Did he also have a reason why the holder was so frosty?

Who cares if he is a retired PO?

Steve

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Posted By: Steve

The PSA grader's err, I never said they don't, but do you really think they would say that the card was slipped out? I just don't see it. They saw the tamper -evident holder was compromised.

That is what I am saying.


Steve


edited for clarity

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Posted By: dennis

as easy as it is to pry open psa and sgc slabs i think this might be happening a lot. both of these companys owe it to their customers to get a better slab. there are a lot of sleeze bags out there and it is very hard to tell from a scan.

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Posted By: Steve

They want this slab, it is tamper -evident and it is best for resubs.

lol

Steve