IMNSHO

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Posted By: Steve Green

I've been following these Net54 forums on a daily basis for only about a month.. I'm a newbie here.. but I've been a moderator on several very active, and very important, technical support forums since 1992.. I've seen the good, I've seen the bad, and I've been a part of the evolution of this stuff for a long, long time..

this is a really, really, really classy forum, with one exception..

this "Dave vs Mark" thing has no place on a public forum.. Leon, you should have deleted it the minute Dave named names.. as moderator, that's your job.. "he said / she said" disputes cannot be allowed to play out on a public forum.. and the rest of you that have contributed are just as bad, for contributing and taking sides..

this could easily end up being a legal matter, and everyone involved in those threads is now commited to the case, like it or not.. I've seen it happen a couple of times before, and it is NOT pretty..

and, oh BTW.. questionable and tampered-with packages DO go in big ziploc bags and/or other cover.. the post office would never deliver them loose.. been there, seen that, too..

bunch of babies.. (sigh).. now can we please get back to business, and not waste any more time using this thread to justify the other threads?

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Posted By: andy becker

very well said steve.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I wish I knew what IMNSHO meant. Is it at least clean?

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Posted By: Jim Frey

in my not so humble opinion?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Jim...the text messaging generation flew right by me!

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Posted By: Dave F

"and, oh BTW.. questionable and tampered-with packages DO go in big ziploc bags and/or other cover.. the post office would never deliver them loose.. been there, seen that, too.."


Hey Steve, your dead wrong...like I said before..it was in a priority box and had been closed back and delivered as is...but thanks for showing you have no class in this manner as well. And just who are you?

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Kudos to you, Steve. Thanks for stepping up.

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Posted By: Dave F

I'll say this...easy enough to see where this is going. Sorry to have troubled everybody with this, I had thought this was a stand up forum where things that were done wrong could be brought to the table without someone else calling me no-class.
I figured a few people would jump me about this, a couple of you I really didn't expect it from as I've done numerous deals with you...but, wont again.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Dave,

I read Steve's post more as a cautionary one rather than one that's calling anyone classless (if it makes sense, I can see the sum of the parts being classless without the parts themselves being classless). Reading between his lines, I think he's saying that everyone's comments and input on the other threads really will do little to solve the problem between you and Mark, and if anything they could only cloud things up.

And I'm sorry, but when threads like he mentioned reach the point where it's primarily a bunch of name-calling, then hope of a resolution grows even fainter.

I really do you you guys find a solution. But I do think it will be tougher now.

For what it's worth.

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Posted By: Dave F

Last thing I'm going to say about this-

It had been a few weeks since this started. Mark had not to the point I posted the original thread made good or even attempted to make good on the value in cards that were lost in the mail. After this posted, it took maybe 36 hours give or take and I get an email with an offer of some cards to compensate. He mailed the out the same day. So, IMO there was a purpose in posting this. Do I NEED $600? No. Do I feel I was owed $600? Yes.

For "Steve" to come on here and also call me a liar, with the fact he KNOWS the P.O. wouldn't deliver a package that has been tampered with without a ziplock bag or whatever...I see as complete B.S. Steve your dead wrong, because I did infact get a package just like that! I've done deals with people on this forum for $2000-4000 worth of value...I've never had to cheat anybody, I'm about as honest as they come. I have $1500 worth of cards sitting in my closet from someone on the board that just sends them to me and says "when you send more off to get graded, please include these". So I don't need YOU Steve throwing your opinion around about my character or how a package would have arrived at my house. If anyone has help in making this a slinging mud contest, that would be YOU who knows NOBODY involved here.

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Posted By: andy becker

i don't think anyone is questioning your receiving an empty package marked in just the way you described and you even added a picture.
but, i will say, my experience with opened mail has been the baggy thing.
that's not to say you didn't have your experience, just that it is different from the norm (i probably received 20ish baggies over the years....i must have a sloppy post office ).
personally, i think this should have been worked out off-line.....only using a public forum as a VERY last resort.
i have done deals with both of you, always without incident.

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Posted By: Steve

If Steve Green only knew...............lol





Hang in there Dave.




Steve D

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Posted By: Steve

Steve Green, I agree it's an unfortunate issue. But, While you say that it is wrong to voice an opinion publically and we're all part and parcel to a potential legal case... Yet on this very same issue, you voice an opinion publically... What?

You may be, but most people aren't shocked by the outing of this. Certainly you've benefitted from reading feedbacks rec'd by your potential sellers. Due to the anonymous nature of online deals this info is beneficial.

There are some folks (that deal in big tix items on our BST) grateful for this info. Dave was at an impasse. IMHO Leon done right by the membership, exhibited by the positive outcome. End of rant and welcome aboard.

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Posted By: Dave F

"i think this should have been worked out off-line.....only using a public forum as a VERY last resort.
i have done deals with both of you, always without incident."


Andy-
So how long would you have waited before finally bringing this ultimately to the board? As I said...weeks had been passing...and nothing was being offered, and emails had went unanswered at the latest point for a week...again, I know he doesn't have internet access all the time, but I know he had it inbetween that week as he did find the time to email other folks...just not me or Leon.

And again...I posted this, and Mark finally did get some cards headed my way. So I don't know this was a bad idea to finally do other than the few morons who sent me private emails telling me what a jackass I am.

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Posted By: Dave F

One more statement to add to this debacle-

Steve Green....since you also assumed I "stole" this card and made this whole thing up because I didn't get a "plastic baggie"...here is the facts-

I collect e98's Steve. Anything else currently that comes into my collections is quickly turned around and traded or sold....now what kind of idiot would it take to pocket an E100 Bishop and a D322 that is very recognizable?? Maybe I pocketed them both and plan on selling them a month from now?? Get a clue Steve.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Steve,

Good intent but you go and add fuel to the fire that you do not want to see. Come on, give your point about personal matters but don't add fuel to the fire and think you are adding something to the board. If you go back in previous threads you will find that things like this happen quite frequently, good or bad it is a part for the board.

Your your thread would be like me saying that Peter C. should be ignored yet say that he is a fool for the threads he starts and respond to every thread.

It appears that this matter has been cleared up by the 2 principles lets leave it alone. Bridges were burned on both sides and it is time to move on.


Lee

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Posted By: PC

Steve G. -- this isn't a "technical service" forum, and maybe you haven't been here long enough to understand why Dave outed this and Leon permitted it. Many thousands of dollars change hands every month on the B/S/T, and when things go horribly wrong, it is worthwhile for the rest of us (who spend a lot of our disposable income via the B/S/T) to know about it and draw our own conclusions. Maybe you would feel differently when you spend a few thousand dollars purchasing or selling cards on the B/S/T.

And Leon has brokered solutions in these difficult situations before (witness the fake T205 Cobb thread, for one example). He doesn't have to do this, but most of us hope he continues to do so.

And you need to read more closely -- Dave received a CLOSED/empty package, that had the empty stamp. If it wasn't actually open when Dave received it, it wouldn't have been in a postal bag. We may be a "bunch of babies", but for the most part we pay attention when we read, and review the whole thread before we start an antagonistic new thread about it (to avoid looking stupid).

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Hello,I am not taking sides in this dispute, but for the last week I have been reading these posts with the comments about the Postal Service. As a Postmaster, I deal with these things on a daily basis. It seems that the bulk of my time is spent dealing with customer problems, and when I get home at night I am too burned out to get involved in more Postal issues. But here it is on Saturday morning, I've had a good nights sleep, so here goes.

1. You would not believe the packages that people try to mail. The clerks in my office are well trained not to accept packages that they KNOW won't make it through the system. They help the customer pick out a suitable box and they provide tape to ensure that the package is suitable for shipping. My clerks will not sell insurance for a parcel that is not properly packaged. Why would we want to insure a package that isn't properly packaged. Many times my clerks will put extra tape on a package after the customer has left just to be sure that the package will be safe.

2. When you are shipping a package it would help if you knew how the packages were handled. When packages leave my office we might have 3-4-500 packages in a large hamper. The packages on the bottom have a lot of weight on them, so it pays to make sure that they are packaged properly.

The hamper goes in the back of a truck, which might be zero degrees in the winter and 100 degrees in the summer. When the truck gets to the first parcel processing plant the hamper is removed from the truck and rolled to a big parcel sorting machine. The hamper is lifted up, turned upside down, and the parcels fall onto a conveyor belt. The belt takes the parcels through a scanner that reads the barcodes, and dumps them into another hamper, ie one hamper for Chicago, one for Milwaukee, etc. Then this process continues at each plant along the way.

The moral of this story is to securely protect the items that you are mailing because there will be bumps and bruises along the way. I have shipped many framed photos w/glass and I haven't had any problems.

3. I agree with the person that posted about the need for insurance and that the Postal Service should be liable for any damaged package, whether insured on not. I beleive that in the near future all packages will be bar coded and basic insurance will be include with each package.

4. Every Post Office has rubber stamps that say: Received in damaged condition, or Received without contents. We also have rolls of tape that say: Received in damaged condition, Received without contents, and Repackaged by the Postal Service. If we the item is small we generally use a plastic bag to reseal it, and for larger items we re-tape the package.

5. My office receives an average of 200 parcels per day and we ship out about the same amount. I receive approximately 3-4 insurance claims per year, and we may receive 1-2 damaged or unsealed parcels per month, so well over 99% of the parcels are arriving safely.

6. My guess is that Mark shipped his package and it ended up on the bottom of a hamper with a couple of hundred packages on top of it, which put pressure on the cardboard flaps and the tape seal. When the parcel went through the scanning/sorting machine the cards fell out. They are probably in the lost and found/registry section of the one of the processing plants. Normally these items are kept at the plant for a couple of weeks and then sent to a Mail Recovery Plant for auction at a later time if they go unclaimed. Our local lost and found section in Madison receives dozens of keys, cash, bank deposits (dropped in a collection box by mistake), jewelry, etc, every day because these items were not properly packaged. These items are tracked very closely, and if a customer contacts me right away I can normally recover the items and return them to my customer.

7. One other piece of advice-Never sent a card in a top load in a regular evelope. Always put cards in a bubble mailer. When you put a card, or a key, or any other slightly thick item in a regular envelope, you need to remember that these envelopes are traveling through a series of machines that sort 30,000 letters per hour. At these high speeds the thick items will get knocked out of a regular envelope.

I hope that this helps everyone understand the process. It would be nice if we could treat each package in a delicate manner, but the sheer volume of parcels that runs through our system makes it impossible for this to happen.

Take care,
Rick

(I will be out Xmas shopping for the rest of the day, so I won't be able to respond right away if any questions arise from my post.

P.S. Barry, thank you for asking about the title of the post. I didn't have any idea what it meant either. (I received my first text message yesterday, and it was a wrong number)

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Posted By: Joann

Steve - you don't understand. That's how we do it here.

Actually, it happens very rarely, only in abnormal circ's, and often with a positive outcome for all. In the past week not only has this issue been resolved, but also another dispute arising from a 7-year old transaction was also resolved.

In that case, based on an arm's length ebay deal in which the buyer and seller didn't know one another, both parties decided the other was a liar, thief and cheat. The issue got aired on this board and people here started vouching for the character of both people. Once both parties understood that the other was honest and of good reputation, and with some help from Leon, there was a compromise worked out - 7 years later.

I don't think anyone here really likes when it happens, but aside from getting the actual issue resolved, it also is a small part of the self-regulatory nature of the BST - which is a good thing.

And in the few times I've seen it, no one has ever brought an issue to the board frivolously or recklessly. It's always when there is a genuine impasse, and often when there is also at true question of who is in the right and feedback from others (and we are all very experienced in similar transactions) are considered.

J

ETA: Lee was posting while I was writing. Interesting that Lee sees these things and frequent and I call it rare. Not saying one or the other of us is wrong, just that the difference in perceptions is kind of interesting.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for the kind words about us being a "classy" forum. I agree with you. Dave had my blessing on this as a last resort, which is what it was. I will continue to offer this kind of solution as a last resort. We are a family and when one of our family does something that the others should know about, or to help with a resolution, this "outing" will continue to be allowed. As moderator I have no legal basis whatsoever for trying to help in matters. (as always we are liable, legally, for what we say). This is the only recourse there is, which is the jury of public opinion. Quite honestly I think all 4 people in these 2 issues are honest people.....I am very happy both situations got worked out satisfactorily to all parties. In the end I feel that is what counts and the means to an end was worthwhile. regards

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Posted By: Marty Kohler

Joann.............Your posts are always well written, well thought out and usually right on...others might try some calm thinking first before they post.........Creative discussion has a way of helping complex issues get resolved...

GO YARD

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Posted By: Brian Collie

Thanks for taking the time to say what needs to be said.

Yes, collecting cards is a nice connection to our childhood, but that doesn't mean we all need to act like children.

There are quite a few here that need to grow up. Just think how many more people would be active participants if they didn't have to read this BS.

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Posted By: dennis

no one has to read this b.s., no mandatory reading here.

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Posted By: andy becker

dave,
the timeframe you, or i, would be willing to wait is a personal decision....no right answer there. for me the more "well known" the person, the longer he/she would have to resolve the situation.

at the end of the day, all we have is our reputation....especially in this arena.

i'm not saying you did anything wrong. i'm just saying that a public forum is a last resort. if you felt you had exhausted all other avenues, and this was a last ditch effort, then we all should understand.

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Posted By: Steve

I am not going to touch this dispute with a 100 foot stick but I wanted to thank Rick for providing a profoundly detailed and valuable insight into package handling. I will be emailing this to my office and have it posted by my shipping area. Leon, maybe it is worth keeping his great post as a shipping guidelines link near your restoration area. Just my thoughts - Steve

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I don't know any of the parties involved here, but as a last resort, after clearing it with Leon, I think Dave acted appropriately in bringing this matter before the board.

Also, given all the posting on the original thread, I certainly do not see the need for another thread on this matter.

Why start a new thread and then end it with: "can we please get back to business, and not waste any more time using this thread to justify the other threads"?

Frank

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Posted By: Red

Very informative and educational post. It should be required reading for anybody who ever ships anything. Neither party wanted a problem to occur. Businesses that ship a lot learn from experience what can happen in the process and develop their packaging to reduce problems. Nowadays with almost every collector also an occasional seller you never know what kind of packaging you’ll be getting in the mail. An inexperienced shipper will package things with care thinking their method is safe. They won’t find out their method isn’t safe until they have a problem. Then they’ll adjust how they package to help keep the problem from happening again. While it might be common preventive measure to experienced shippers to tape a self sealing box, it might have never occurred to somebody that hasn’t heard about it happening before that they could ever pop open.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I had a registered package delivered ripped open and empty to a guy in New York. NO baggie whatsoever! This was used in my PSA case that I won in court.

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Posted By: JK

Steve,

Your post is dead wrong. I dont believe that Mark or Dave did anything intentional to rip the other off. However, given the facts as laid out, I definitely want to know if someone on the bst isnt acting in a manner that I would expect - that way, I can make my own decisions in the future as to whether I feel comfortable dealing with someone.

As far as "this being a legal matter" and "everyone involved in those threads being commited to the case", all I can say is huh???? Sorry, but you dont become a witness to the case or "involved" in it simply because you have an opinion on it. You become a witness only if you have first hand knowledge. Although I was just asked to testify in the latest OJ Simpson case after I made the mistake of discussing it with co-workers around the water cooler - so maybe you are right after all.

You also stated "and, oh BTW.. questionable and tampered-with packages DO go in big ziploc bags and/or other cover.. the post office would never deliver them loose.. been there, seen that, too.."

So in other words, we are all babies and "just as bad" as Dave for putting in our two cents, but you feel free to give your own opinions - nice double standard. I also guess you realize that your implication that Dave was lying about receiving an empty package because it wasnt in a plastic baggie was completely wrong - unless you would like to call a USPS Postmaster a liar as well.

As for calling us a "bunch of babies" - You have shown yourself to be one classy guy. Perfect for this board I guess.

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Posted By: Scott L

The fact that Dave waited weeks without receiving contact and only received a response after posting the issue on the forum tells me all I need to know on whether it was appropriate for Dave to post his situation on the board. In the end his posting led to Mark making good and to me that's what's important.

All I can say is that while I've never met Dave in person I hope some day I do. I hope to so that I can say "thanks" in person to a guy who routinely sends cards to PSA for me because I don't have a membership. He busts cards out of other holders when I ask (I'm kinda clumsy.) He then takes the time to package and ship my cards to PSA and then takes the time to package and ship the cards back to me while always refusing to let me pay anything more than what postage and supplies cost (if that).

Dave is as nice a guy as someone could hope to meet without actually meeting them if that makes sense.

Scott

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I occasionally receive packages (usually deposition transcripts sent in manila envelopes where the spine tears the envelope in handling) that have been damaged in the mail. They typically come with a rubber stamp on them and no baggie.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Has anyone EVER received a catalog from REA where the package is not beat to hell? I don't know why, but every one I get from them looks like someone threw it in the dryer and put it on "Tumble dry". The catalog has always survived in perfect condition though which is amazing.

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Posted By: Steve Green

wow.. the variety of responses, and opinions, is overwhelming.. and a few of them presented views that might be considered unique to this type of arena, and I thank those individuals for their responses.. also, the detailed explanation of postal procedures undoubtedly will help many of us in the future..

however, there were also several responses that were rude and totally uncalled for.. I won't justify them by responding in kind..

I understand the "last resort" position that Leon and some others presented.. if that's what has worked here, fine.. in the past, I have found that to be a very dangerous option.. none of us could ever be mistaken for "public figures" in court, and I've seen things like this deteriorate to the level where the concepts of "libel" and "slander" begin to come into play.. when I see a thread with the title "Character Assassination" posted in response to some of the comments here, I can't help but remember those similar situations that I've seen elsewhere..

I'm sorry if my comments offended anyone, or if my attempt to intervene was out of place, but I've seen flame threads get out of hand VERY quickly, and I've found that the best course of action is to try to temporarily divert attention elsewhere as fast as possible.. if I have managed to do that, at least partially, then this thread has been worthwhile..

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Posted By: Wesley

The only reasons why this thread can ever be considered worthwhile are:

1. Rick took the time to post information about what takes place at the post office.

2. We all learned a new acronym IMNSHO.

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Posted By: Eric B

and, oh BTW.. questionable and tampered-with packages DO go in big ziploc bags and/or other cover.. the post office would never deliver them loose.. been there, seen that, too..

umm, there is no need to use the baggie to keep loose items together, it was an empty box - nothing else is falling out.

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Posted By: fkw

The card looks like a reprint to me.

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<I've found that the best course of action is to try to temporarily divert attention elsewhere as fast as possible.. if I have managed to do that, at least partially, then this thread has been worthwhile..>>

So you started this thread as a diversion to the other threads, which were a valid discussion over an ongoing business dispute?

Wow! How nice of you.

(Just out of curiousity, what makes your opinion "Not So Humble"?)

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Posted By: ramram

Rick -

If you're not too burned out to take this question-

I have had some trouble insuring packages that I wish to mail. After I ask for insurance, I have had the clerks ask me what I am shipping because, according to them, there are certain things the Post Office won't pay for even if they are lost or stolen in spite of insurance. They say that I can get insurance but it would be a waist of money unless I ship it registered.

As a side note, one thing that I'd have to mention - a concern I have is telling anybody what I am shipping for obvious reasons, and I know that the postal employees aren't supposed to ask, for obvious reasons, but I have been dealing with them long enough at this location that I think they are just looking out for my best interest when they ask. At least I haven't had a problem yet. Anyway, do you know if certain collectibles are not actually covered, even if you do buy insurance? Registered mail is always an option but its slow and costly.

Rob M.

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Posted By: Steve Green

> Just out of curiousity, what makes your opinion "Not So Humble"?

also just out of curiosity, what kind of jackass continues to insult people after they try to apologize, and explain their actions?

my intentions were sincere.. doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, you can at least be civil..

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Posted By: Jim VB

I don't believe I tried to insult you at all. That's not my way. I was curious about your use of the "not so humble". I said nothing that deserved you calling me a jackass.

For the record, I didn't read your post as an attempt to apologize, at all. Using the "I'm sorry if I offended anybody..." line doesn't ring sincere. Never does.

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Posted By: DMcD

Civil? Jackass??

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Steve,
I don't know you at all, but in my opinion you brought this on yourself..

With this comment alone:

"and, oh BTW.. questionable and tampered-with packages DO go in big ziploc bags and/or other cover.. the post office would never deliver them loose.. been there, seen that, too..'

"bunch of babies.. (sigh).. now can we please get back to business, and not waste any more time using this thread to justify the other threads?"


You my friend are wrong... and your words speak volumes.

If you don't have anything nice or constuctive to say than don't say anything at all...

Be well Brian

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Posted By: JK

So now calling someone else a "jackass" is civil? What a novel idea.

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Posted By: Steve

I knew this thread had potential.



Steve D

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi JK,
I think Ty was pretty civil today.... But Danny was down right mean/Green...... Be well Buddy. Brian

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Boy what a great moderator this would be and maybe is. Leon, I think we have found your successor. Comes here telling us that we should have disputes on the board and his flame burns brightly from his first post to his last.

Steve Green my friend you will fit into this board quite nicely.

I have to go to my room and cry, I just spilled my milk.

Lee

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Lee,
I'm not sure Steve Green is his real name.... and if it is I wouldn't post it that often. Be well Brian

PS Don't spill any milk on those Cycles.... smiley

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Posted By: Dave F

Steve,

Maybe I missed your email with an apology calling me a thief?

Also...I'd LOVE to know exactly what board(s) you are/have moderated that are similiar in nature to this....I just have to check out how professionally they are run.



Edited to add, your welcome to email me anytime to discuss Steve Green. I wouldn't want to make this anymore of a circus on here, thanks to your advice.

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Posted By: Matt

I hope the heat Dave has taken for airing this both publicly (from Steve) and privately via emails won't deter him or others from airing such issues in the future. I think the majority of us would like to be informed about deals gone bad in the BST.

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Posted By: Eric B

IMNSHO....this isn't a new phrase. It's quite common. Don't judge Steve by his use and the actual exact meaning of it.

But you can judge him by the rest of his comments, imho.