Where did the Cobb/Ty Cobb back card originate ?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

In my search for the original source of this very scarce card, I have come to a "dead-end". But, on my
way I have made these observations.......

Consider these certain similarities between the Ty Cobb back and the American Beauty 460 back:

1....the Green ink

2....the identical style of lettering on both cards....namely the "T's"...."Y's"...."C's"

3....Factory No. 42 4th Dist. N.C. (American Beauty 460)

4....Factory No. 33 Dist. 4, N.C. (Ty Cobb)

Now, to these last two comparisons are not just coincidence. In 1911, Liggett & Myers took over when
the American Tobacco Co. was broken up. Pictured in the postcard is the L & M factory in Durham. NC.
My research has led me to believe this was the original site of Factory #42, 4th District.

So, the American Beauty cigarettes were produced at this plant in NC; and, the last series (460) of
the T206s with this brand were inserted in the Am. Bty. packs.

Since the Ty Cobb back identifies Factory #33 in the 4th District (NC), the plant that produced the
Ty Cobb cigarettes must have been a nearby facility in Durham. Indeed, the postcard identifies this
plant as "One of the Plants of L & M Tobacco Co."

You guys can tell me that my "wild" imagination is in "overdrive" ! !
Or, you can offer us some better ideas. But, don't misconstrue my thoughts here, I am one who does NOT
think this Ty Cobb card is an integral part of the T206 set. I consider it a "set" in itself, that probably was
produced....post 1911 era.

In fact, I am one who subscribes to the theory that the T206 cards are actually 15 separate sets....each
according to their respective T-brand.
Anyhow, I'm curious to hear your responses to these comparisons ?

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Posted By: Dave F

Ted, for myself and my 40/40 vision it's hard to say about the ink coloring. Unless someone has a different scan of a Ty Cobb back...the one you show looks more teal in color to me, or am I crazy? In other words, even if faded...it looks as if it would have been a bolder teal to begin with?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

My scan of the Ty Cobb back is from a picture. I'm not sure how true the color of that picture is to
the real card. I am somewhat disappointed that I couldn't get a better picture of the Ty Cobb back.

Of course I am more disappointed that I don't have a real card to scan....ha !

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

This scan may help. My comparisons show the green to be basically the same as both Sovereign and American Beauty.

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Posted By: Art M.

Here is a picture of the Durham, North Carolina tobacco factories in 1907. Duke's was purchased by American tobacco company shortly thereafter.

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Posted By: Brett

I'm guessing none of factories where they were printed are still standing..

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Posted By: John

Ted, I averaged the colors using Photoshop and a lab color program the colors may look close but are they are a bit different none the less. Hope this helps in fact the percentages that make up the colors are below in both RGB and Lab CMYK. I also discarded any color patterns that may have been embedded in the below scans. I also included the last Cobb/Cobb backed cards that haven been offered publicly, including Jim's hope thats ok Jim?



American Beauty 460, Color: #629955

R: 98
G: 153
B: 85

C: 66
M: 21
Y: 85
K: 4


Ty Cobb, Color: #558E61

R: 85
G: 142
B: 97

C: 70
M: 25
Y: 75
K: 7


In fact in looking at the lettering the script is similar but not exact, I’m sure I could research the font and find that it was a popular period font or type face. I broke out the letters for you to see, you are correct they are very close but not exact IMO.




Hope this helps you a bit…

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for showing your actual Ty Cobb back and confirming that its green color
matches the American Beauty green color.

TED Z

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Posted By: David Smith

This idea just hit me; after looking at the comparisons of font type between the Ty Cobb back and the American Beauty back, could the year the TY Cobb back was manufactured be determined by the type of font?? What I mean is, was the font used on the Ty Cobb back known only after a certain year??

Let's say the font on regular T206's was named X and that font was created in the year of YYYY. So, if you didn't know when T206's were made and distributed but DID know when the font was created, you could definitely say the cards were made AFTER a certain year.

Looking at the font type on the Ty Cobb back card, was that created years before the T206's or was that created, say, after 1912?? If it were created years before, then that isn't any help. If it were created in 1912, then we know that the Ty Cobb backed card really couldn't be classified as a T206, or could we??

Just wondering.

David

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Posted By: Dylan

All of the real tough T206's see many of the highest prices ever realized at auction. If the Cobb were ever definitevly 100% proven to not be a T206(i know some already feel it has been but...) would it decrease in desirability or does this card have such a standalone "aura" that it will always see prices much higher then its peers(for instance the T213-3 which has very few known, the same pose, only thing different is the back yet sells for many many times less)

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Posted By: John

David,

That’s a good idea I’ve had a similar idea in the past. However most fonts or type faces will only get you into a ballpark year, sort of like this font was popular during the Victorian period etc. But as for a list of fonts with creation dates I’m not sure such a record exists. But if it did you are correct that would be one really good way to tell what year it might have been made.

The fonts however are clearly different IMO, the Y extends much higher on one side than the Y in the Cobb brand. The T is night and day, and the C is much more thin and has more curl than the American Beauty C.

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Posted By: anthony

are there any other players with the TY COBB back or just Ty Cobb??

if so, are they all from the same factory?

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Posted By: Dylan

just cobb

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Posted By: John

All Cobb and all the same factory.

Jim, does your Cobb have the glossy front??

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for a "bang-up" job on expanding on the comparison I made of the lettering between the Ty Cobb
and the American Beauty. By looking at all the backs of the 15 T-brands and comparing them with the Ty
Cobb back....I find the Am. Bty. is the only one that has very close similarities. And, while the style is not
exact, you must admit that there is an uncanny closeness.

Furthermore, the significance of the Am. Bty 460 back, is that it reflects the start of the L & M period (1911)
of the T206 production (as of course, the Piedmont 460 Factory #42 cards also do). Therefore, perhaps there
is a "link" here to the Ty Cobb production period since it reflects the same 4th District plant in North Carolina.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Here is a display and list of the Tobacco brands awarded to L & M.....post ATC break up in 1911.
No Ty Cobb brand here....
but, then we shouldn't be surprised; as, I am convinced the Ty Cobb brand was sort of a "novelty"
item and was produced circa....post-1911.

TED Z



c'mon now...you guys need to edit these yourselves ....I'll teach ya' (leon)

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

That scriptive design under "World" on the Ty Cabb back seems to be the exact same thing as under "Cigarettes" on the American Beauty back, too, except the AB back also adds the two swirl things...

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for reducing my scan. I've been good lately at sizing my scans. But, on this one....it was 4 o'clock
in the morning and I hadn't had my coffee, yet. Anyhow, that's my excuse.

Regards,

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

That's a great period postcard of the Durham, NC plant....Thanks, for sharing it.

My postcard of the L & M plant is circa 1920. It's my understanding that this structure still exists;
and, has a museum and stores and a restaurant (or two).

Also, there has been a restoration of some of the old Tobacco related buildings in Durham, which
may include the one on your postcard.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

"Here is a display and list of the Tobacco brands awarded to L & M.....post ATC break up in 1911.
No Ty Cobb brand here....
but, then we shouldn't be surprised; as, I am convinced the Ty Cobb brand was sort of a "novelty"
item and was produced circa....post-1911."


I could say the exact same thing except change the last part of the last sentence and the logic is eqully as strong.

"....but, then we shouldn't be surprised; as I am convinced the Ty Cobb brand was sort of a "novelty" item and was produced circa... early 1910 and thus would not have been included in the division of brands in the break-up."



Can we wait for conclusive evidence before drawing conclusions? I know I will. I have yet to see a shred of definative evidence that leads to the conclusion that the Ty Cobb brand was not produced at the same time as the other T206s.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

Maybe the gloss was put on to protect the card because it was inserted in a loose leaf tobacco tin. I know that Polar Bear was as well and we can see the results of that on the cards. Maybe for a special limited edition like the Ty Cobb brand they went the extra mile.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

John,
Mine has a glossy front. All but one or two of the twelve known have the glossy front. I have seen one that does not; it is considered to be the best known copy. Rob Lifson thought it was some sort of proof when I talked with him about it seven or eight years ago. His reasoning was the lack of gloss and the fact that it looks handcut (well done, but hand cut). I have heard of another example without gloss, but have not seen it personally.
JimB

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Posted By: MVSNYC

again, i did see one in person recently (PSA 2), it had the glossy front...

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Are the Ty Cobb backs narrow side to side as the American Beautys tend to be? Can't tell from eyeballing the scans.

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Posted By: JimB

Peter,
No, they are not narrow. They are the same size as other T206s.
JimB



Edited to add scans.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

You are "near" correct......upon close observation of the stylized design in the lower center (below
the lettering), of the American Beauty (AB) and the Ty Cobb (TC) backs; there is a close similarity.
The AB has this design accented with two symmetrically swirled lines (see scan).

This same exact design is also found on all the Broad Leaf, Cycle and Drum backs.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

OK, so you took my statement and re-did it with your converse.......

"....but, then we shouldn't be surprised; as I am convinced the Ty Cobb brand was sort of a "novelty" item and was
produced circa... early 1910 and thus would not have been included in the division of brands in the break-up."

Jim....While, I admire your doggedness in believing this Ty Cobb card was printed "circa 1910" and is an integral part
of the T206 set......what proof do you have of this ?

And, although I'm in the school of thought that believes this Ty Cobb card is a "post-1911" issue (and not part of the
T206 set)....I have no definitive proof of that either. However, I do my research; and, I post this information in order
to prove my side of this. If nothing else, it encourages thought-provoking discussion on this forum. Perhaps, someone
on this board might just come across some definitive proof as a result of our discussions.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Ted,
I very much appreciate the work you have done on this issue and on T206s in general. You do a great service to the hobby. You are right that nobody has found definative evidence either way to date the Cobb back. So my inclination is to stick with Burdwick and the ACC designation of the card as T206 until some evidence comes in that leads definatively to a different conclusion.
JimB

P.S. I agree that if I were to have written the ACC, I probably would have categorized these cards as sixteen sets: T206-1, T206-2, T206-3, etc. But the hobby has inherited a different way of thinking about them. I applaud your pursuit of the various (sub-)sets: Piedmont, Sovereign, etc.

You know, as I write this something occurred to me. I am wondering if the ATC offering might not be accurately considered to be one set as Burdwick and the pioneers listed it. My thinking is that if some of the backs like EPDG or Sovereign 460 did not ever actually produce 460 subjects or near that many with that back, then does that number refer to the ATC offering as a whole having that many subjects?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I haven't read through this whole thread so excuse me if I am repeating something already mentioned, but even the front of the Cobb with Cobb back is noticeably different than that of the T206:

1) The "D" on the uniform is brown on all known T206's; it appears gray on the Cobb back.

2) Cobb's hair is brown on all T206's- it looks blond on the Cobb back

3) his jersey has a brown line to the left of the buttons on the T206; that brown line is absent on the Cobb back

Again, I apologize if this has already been said.

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
I respectfully disagree. Here are various T206 Cobbs. Oragne added for natural variance.

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Posted By: JimB

FYI, Both cards in the middle have Cobb backs. The one on the right is the example without gloss on the front. I think the second one from the left just got a lighter strike of the greyish blue. But there is no brown on any of them, Cobb back or otherwise.
JimB

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

You are thinking of the Green Cobb, where his "D" is Brown. On the Red Cobb, the "D" is always Gray.

But, I have always wondered why Cobb's hair looks more blond on the Ty Cobb (back) card than the
light brown hair on the normal Red Cobb.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
The gloss might have something to do with it...... Be well Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

I am aware of the difference between the "D" on the red and green Cobbs; in fact, they aren't even designed the same, so you don't need to see a color picture to know which is which.

But I was just looking at the pictures on this thread and one of the "D's" looks brown, so perhaps it wasn't scanned true to color. The pictures supplied by Jim reveal a rather wide color spectrum.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Barry- get your butt in the city!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm leaving in 5 minutes...F train to Jay Street, A to 14th and 8th. See you before 6:00

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Posted By: MVSNYC

bring the joe jackson rookie from your auction, we'll throw it around...

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I have only seen the "glossy" ones, and not only does this coating lighten Cobb's hair; but, his eyes appear bluer
than the normal Red Cobb.

TED Z

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Has anyone tried to trace the origin of the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco tin that Mastro recently had in
his auction ?

I'm somewhat skeptical about that tin having any connection with this Ty Cobb card. But, it would be
nice to know more about the tin.

TED Z

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Posted By: Brett

You'd think there would have been some documents that have survived somewhere with the info on the Ty Cobb back...