Bidding against friends

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Let me try and articulate my dilemma - I recently saw a vintage card on eBay that I was preparing to bid on when I noticed that a fellow Net54 member was already bidding on it. I knew this card was high on his most wanted list and I am sure he wanted it much more than me but the price was still low at the time. I should also note that he has helped me in the past with my collecting interests. I decided to pass on the card and not bid but I really wondered what others do in this circumstance? I am sure it is hard to avoid sometimes but what do you do in this situation?

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Posted By: Dave F

There have been times I've backed off something before.. but in doing that there has also been times I've backed off and NEITHER of us won the auction...the couple guys here i'm pretty close with for the most part go after the exact same cards...at times you just can't avoid it....you win some, you lose some...and who knows you may end up selling him the card later or vice versa.

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Posted By: Ed

Friendship and rivalry go hand in hand. I'm not a philosopher, but I have enough anecdotal evidence.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If it's something that fits into my collecting focus I will go after it no matter what, but there are items on ebay that I like right now that I have passed on because the current high bidder has helped me out in the past with my collection.

I don't have to worry too much though because as far as I know there is only one other Net54 member who collects Nebraska Indians items and none who really collect prewar snapshot type photos or Nebraska minor league items.

I do occasionally go after Eddie Collins cards and run into Net54 competition.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Our first reaction is not to bid against friends, and it's a noble idea, but it only works if one's friend wins the lot. If a third party gets it, you've accomplished nothing. It's a fine line.

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Posted By: Rob

determine your max bid, find out your "friend's" max bid, and if your's is higher, then bid! if its lower, then no point in driving up the price against your friend if u're gonna lose.

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Posted By: mr. moses

play at the poker table, or spitting into the wind. It has to be about "you" sometimes and one is better off not taking halfway measures as it may end up with no-one satisfied, the evidence not standing up in court, or something cold and wet (er-ah-nevermind).........). For once I'll try and be on topic. I try not to bid against my friends or the people I sell to. I might occasionally email them to find out their maximum $ interest, and we usually agree to let the person with the highest $ interest go for it. Things I chase have a somewhat small circle of seriously interested parties and a limited "pool" of material - and I know or are friends with many of them. Occasionally things don't go smoothly or two of us agree that "the chase is on"! My friends are my friends because they are my friends......

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Posted By: barrysloate

Friends can certainly agree to go head to head, with no hard feelings if the other one gets it. Things will usually come up for sale again.

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Posted By: Scott

Bidding early has but one advantage in my opinion. It establishes known interest between friends. However, as soon as your outbid, the auction is fair game. This is the agreement that I have with my buds.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hello Bill...

I've stood in those shoes. Generally, I don't bid on something if a collector I know is going strong on it. If it is really low I have bid, it is almost like saying "Hi" to the guy. He's not going to win it at that little price anyway, and with 5 days to go the price will go up. I've emailed the bidder sometimes, if it already is at a serious price, just to say that I saw it, and thought of bidding, but didn't want to start unless he was done.

A few collectors have taken to emailing me, asking me if I thought a certain eBay lot was authentic. I'm honored that they value my opinion. And I always respond to them. A few times they've found something I was interested in but had not seen. And a couple of times I've bid on the item, after ascertaining that they were done bidding.

So what to do. It reminds me of when in younger days, one of the guys in the gang would break up with a girlfriend. Some of us would never ask out an ex of one of our buddies. A few of us figured that she'd be dating someone, and the buddy would rather see one of us with her than some stranger... I was in the former bunch in that thinking.

You bid on anything you want that I've bid on, unless it is a T210 series 6 card of Angermeier fielding or of Whitaker. Those two please stay away from. Thanks!

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Posted By: Steve f

If I happen to be the seller, then hammer him.

Ive emailed other bidders before, just to give them the skinny before I snipe. They seem to appreciate it.

Of course if the thing breaks two bills, this issue's a moot point.

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Posted By: Russ Bright

I've had this happen a LOT with the T205 collectors, there seem to be about 10 of us from here (and a few others from outside) that are always outbidding each other...

I look at it this way, would you rather lose out to a friend who may have upgraded and have a card for sale? or a complete stranger and it goes off into collecting ether?

I have congratulated friends on good bidding wars (and learned the lesson about NOT sniping more than I can afford, lol) and always send them e-mails to see about trades or anything else...

the only problem I have is when someone with DEEP pockets (yes, someone from this board) seems to be buying EVERYTHING at 150% of book, just because they can... it sucks, but what can you do? It makes the cards that I already had worth more, but makes it harder to complete my set... I've been using e-bay, but leaning and doing more deals outside, at least in the outside world I don't have to look their bidder ID in the face (lol)

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If your friend says he's mad because you bid against him, tell him you're madder because he bid against you. If he says, "But I bid first," you should say, "As a friend, you should have removed your bid when you saw that I wanted the lot."

When it costs him money as a seller, this mad friend probably would be against the practice of friends refraining from bidding against friends.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Hi Frank --the Whitaker is no problem --the Angermeier fielding now that might be another matter !!!!!!!! Although I will be happy when you finally complete the series so I wont have to worry about bidding against you. Bill

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Posted By: Scott L

if they are high bidder I won't bid. Those are guys I talk to via e-mail and such and feel like I have a friendship with. Just a personal decision and if they were to come over top of me with a bid I wouldn't care (unless it was an Evers portrait).

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Posted By: Bob

I try and avoid cards I know friends are bidding on and many times my friends have done the same for me. The problem is when you both have snipe bids and neither knows the other is sniping on it. I have also sent an email asking a bidder/friend how serious about the card he might be and I have received these also. I think friendships are more important than a single card but maybe I am in the minority as I recently got stung from out of the blue by someone I thought I had a good relationship with. The "all's fair in cards and war" attitude can sometimes be hard to swallow, but I understand some collectors feel that way.
I also think when you think about all the many collectors, especially here on the 54 Board who have been very considerate and make inquiries about cards, it shows that this is still, after all, a hobby. I would mention to anyone here that if there is a particular card you need and I have a bid on it to be sure and email me and let me know.

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Posted By: Dave F

Whew...that means you didnt' see that Evers portrait PSA 3 I picked up this morning for $28? Ha ha

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Posted By: Scott L

You were one of the "one or two" I mentioned so how does $28 plus $3 S/H for the Evers sound?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

No way a $28 Evers ships for $3. Gotta give a guy $5 for shipping. Be fair.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

All's fair. I frequently outbid and am outbid by friends. That's life. I often email them afterwards with congrats if they topped me.

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Posted By: Joann

Situational. I'll bid against others I know if I can tell that their bids are bookmark bids and not really serious attempts.

If it's a serious attempt I'll often back off unless either 1) it's something that is really hard to find and I've been looking for (this hasn't really happened yet) or 2) they have outbid me on cards in the past that I was clearly making a strong run at. That's not trying to be vindictive - it's more a recognition that with some people the philosophy is there and with some it isn't.

Joann

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Posted By: Dave F

Scott...I'll wait for you to find a Cobb red portrait in a PSA 1 for $50 and I'll swap you....I'm sure I'll be waiting awhile.

Joann...sent you an email earlier on something you may be interested in

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Posted By: calvindog

If a friend asks me to back off on a card I do. There will always be another card.

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Posted By: Chris Mc

Over $200 and it doesn't matter. If it fits my focus I go for it.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Calvindog, that was sagely spoken.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

if they are your friends-you should already know what they want and not drive up the price for them.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

At the very least, you should divide the cards you both want...and this way the prices stay lower. Now, that being said, none of this applies when my cards are being sold.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- isn't there a legal term for friends banding together to keep the prices down?

I think it's called collusion

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

If I see a card I'd like to own, but I know a friend really needs the card, I'll ask him if he's planning to go hard after it. If he is, I back off. I do this frequently, but only if I know the guy NEEDS the card, or is a maniac about the set. If it's just a random card, I don't bother - all's fair.

But I'm with Jeff - there will always be another card.

UNLESS, of course, the seller of the card is also a friend. In that case, I want the seller to do well also, and so I'll bid.

Then I start making value judgements: who's a better friend - the seller or the collector? And then it gets really stressful and I curl up in a fetal position in the corner, all confused and freaked out, and wind up drinking myself into a stupor.

-Al

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Posted By: Joe D.

For a friend - I would back away if asked- or even take the initiative and offer to back away If I thought someone else would be obviously interested in a card.

I guess a sticky situation could happen if I 'really wanted' a card... and a friend also 'really wanted' the same card.
But I haven't been hit with that situation yet - and I am sure we could work that out.

Most likely I would yield... as I generally believe as Jeff said - another card will come along.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have a different perspective on this issue. As an auctioneer, my job is to get my consignor the highest price possible. When I see people banding together to keep prices down, it naturally strikes too close to home.

That said, I've joined groups to buy large lots from the major auction houses so that we can all get something and not have to go head to head. So I am the first to say I live a double standard. Part of the problem is everything is just getting so expensive.

It's nice for friends to work together and respect each other, but one day you will be the consignor and may lose out because of it.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Barry:

That's precisely why I feel the way I do about knowing the seller.

There are a handful of people in the hobby who sell or auction cards that I would consider to be friends. In a case like that, I don't want to do anything that might impact their livelihood, or their ability to get a decent price for their card.

And I also won't collude with a group of people to agree on a price beforehand. I'll only do it with one guy.

For example, when I was aggressively buying '38 Goudeys in higher grades, I had a friend who had a set that was, overall, virtually identical to mine. But he had some cards in lower grades, and so did I. So, if I had a given card in 6, and he had it in 3, and a 7 came along, I would back off - but he still had to bid high enough to win the card from everyone else.

At the same time, if we both had the card in 5, and a 7 came along, the card was fair game. Sometimes, I won it. Other times, he won it. And sometimes, it was won by someone else. Ultimately, we were both very happy with our sets (although he has since moved onto a different set, and I still chase after the cards like a knucklehead).

-Al

EDITED twice for clarity, although I still don't know that I'm any more clear.

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Posted By: Rhys

I find myself bidding against Dan Bretta and a few others on this forum quite a bit, but I also back off sometimes when it is something I might not "really" want or if it is something I know he is passionate about more than I am. It comes from having similar tastes in collecting but it also. I refuse to outbid my brother on anything though and I think he is the same with me but it has happened on last minute items a few times.

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Posted By: Bob

The one thing which is a real irritant is when someone emails you and asks you to back off a card because he really needs the card and you do so, only to see the person asking you to step aside is outbid on the card by someone else at a price below what you would have bid. That has happened a few times. Not a huge deal but irritating.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I understand letting a friend have that special item on his wantlist, but, I have to tell you, if this suppression of bidding is widespread in a small area of collecting it sure comes across like reverse-shilling. Shilling often involves a friend bidding in order to artificially raise the value (hurting the winner). This involves a friend withholding bids and often artificially lowering the value (hurting the seller). Pardon me if I fail to see a big difference between the two-- I'm sure the seller (who doesn't happen to be a friend) won't.

Perhaps eBay sellers should turn to private auctions and, when asked for a reason why, link to this thread.

Scott Gaynor once said he used to have to make private eBay auctions of a specific type of material, as the main collectors would collude bidding depending on who had placed a bid on what. I assume the bidding was much similar to as what is described here.

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Posted By: peter chao

David,

It's unfortunate but the collectibles market is pretty thin...so currently it is rather easy for either buyers or sellers to collude.

Peter

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Most major collectors of rare material have very defined needs.

Extraordinary items rarely appear. Chances are that when an item
that has long- resided on one's want list does come up for auction
in Mastro, Robert Edward, Goodwin or perhaps, albeit rarel, E-bay,
then all of your "fellow collectors" will be "going for it.".

Collecting, like every other aspect of life, is a competition. There are
winners and losers. Whilst one may choose to socialize with someone
who has similar interests, the parameters of a "friendship" should not
extend to not competing for an item that one wants for his collection.

In fact, if you are so kind as to not bid, and perhaps discourage other
bidders, then why not go all out and acquire the item and give it to
your friend?



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Jeff

"Collecting, like every other aspect of life, is a competition. There are
winners and losers."

Wow. That's quite a view on life.

For me collecting is something that I do in my free time that brings me a sense of nostalgia, joy and relaxation. It also gives me the opportunity to meet other great people who I would have never meant had we not shared a common interest - one of whom is a semi-regular poster on this board, and at least two others who are lurkers. I'm a better person for having met and known these people, so I guess that makes me a "winner".

Jeff

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Posted By: peter chao

I agree with you a 100%, if I wanted competition I would have become an attorney...oh yah, I forgot I am an attorney. So that's what the hobby means to me, for a moment in time I can be myself with my friends and my cards.

Peter

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Posted By: JimB

I have stepped back from bidding on cards I knew a friend wanted more than me. And many on this board have done the same for me.
JimB

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

The Chinese have a custom, where it doesn't matter how much money you have or how old you are. After the dinner party is over on a Friday or Saturday night, you walk guests outside into the cold night and wait for your friends to get into their cars and drive away.

It is a matter of curtesy and friendship and goes beyond the competitive nature of life.

It's a custom being repeated here in the Bay Area among the rich Chinese in Hillsborough, Woodside, Monte Sereno etc. It is simply a way of making the guest feel at home.

It's the same with card collectors. The best example is when we were young we would trade cards with each other. There were no price guides to insure the trade was fair, instead people just wanted to complete a series or they were interested in obtaining a card of their favorite player. It was that simple.

Once in a while if you had a double of a favorite player, you would simply give that double to a friend. You didn't worry whether the card would one day be a hundred dollar card. It was just a matter of friendship.

Let's face it most of us have a competitive side, otherwise we wouldn't be scanning our fancy $1000 cards onto this website. Also, when I'm out in left field with some of my ideas, you guys and gals are smart enough to reprimand me. It's friendly competition. At one time or another each of us were probably the smartest in their class. Unfortunately for me, that was back in second grade.

In the hobby for a moment in time we don't have to focus on the competition. Chinese have another custom. Friends and family would go to a fancy restaurant and spend a $1,000 on a fancy meal. Then people would try to sneak out to the cashier to pick up the check. Everybody wanted to pick up the check for their friends.

At auctions we have to go beyond the competition and remember that the most important part of it is the friends and the cards are truly secondary.

Happy Mother's Day.

Peter

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

Old cliche:
"WHOEVER DIES WITH THEMOST TOYS WINS"

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Posted By: Steve Murray

This could get ugly

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Posted By: peter chao

The old cliche about the person dying with the most toys. The cliche is a form of sarcasm. I don't know if any of you can put yourself in the shoes of the dying person.

But the last thing a dying person thinks about is the number of toys they have. They are much more likely to think about the times they failed to hug their children when they should have. Or they will think about the grief they gave their parents. Or they will think about the times they let down a friend.

Perhaps, they will feel guilty about the time they sold a trimmed card without informing the buyer.

Maybe they will also remember the good times. The times they went with friends to the ballpark and saw a game, and drank a couple of beers with friends.

Remember this, "in order to win the rat race you need to think like a rat." It is the meek that will inherit the earth.

Peter

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Tell us Peter, how many "meek" guys are there running a billion dollars or more
in hedge funds? A number of these "meek" new masters of the universe are now
collecting high grade, rare cards.

Whilst the meek shall inherit the Earth is a nice thought,,,meek guys don't
build world class collections, don't make it to the Alpha Hedge Fund list
or even to first place in the local bowling league.

One can build friendships...but collecting (ie. art, rare furniture, exceptional
baseball items) is a competition...if it is not, why are nearly all the extraordinary
items sold via the auction route?

Competition allows every one with the savvy and the resources the opportunity
to acquire what they wish. Anything else, as far as we can tell, is a conspiracy to
lower the price and that ultimately hurts the entire collectible arena.

Thanks for your consideration in this matter

America's Toughest Want List

Bruce Dorskind

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Before anyone jumps on Bruce, I tend to agree with what he said about the meek. Maybe the meek inherit the earth but only because their parents were alpah dogs who made a lot of cash and died young.

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Posted By: Dave S

"One can build friendships...but collecting (ie. art, rare furniture, exceptional
baseball items) is a competition...if it is not, why are nearly all the extraordinary
items sold via the auction route?

Competition allows every one with the savvy and the resources the opportunity
to acquire what they wish. Anything else, as far as we can tell, is a conspiracy to
lower the price and that ultimately hurts the entire collectible arena."

I always perceived "competition" as a contest among rivals, with common rules on a common playing field. Don't think many on here can "compete" with a Bill Gates or many other heavy hitters when it comes to funding a hobby...

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Posted By: Scot

.

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Posted By: Bob

I agree with Peter. Friendships and family are the most important things we have in life and that "most toys wins" philosophy is reminiscent of Citizen Kane, a guy with all the wordly possessions imaginable and not a single true friend, dying bitter and lonely.
Don't forget "Rosebud" along the way

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, as Bruce said thank god for the hedge fund managers...because if there is anything America needs right now, it's more billionaires!