Buy the card, not the holder, BUT...

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

Do the people who profess, "Buy the card, not the holder" follow that logic when it comes to cards that are slabbed: NAGY COLLECTION, etc??? I've noticed that cards with designations that they were owned by a major collector in the hobby seem to attain higher closing prices than if the card did not have the designation.

For example, if a card is given an SGC50 with Nagy collection... it seems like it will get about 15-20% more money than one that is simply SGC50. Is it really worth more because it sat in the safety deposit box or closet of a "hobby icon"???

Just curious as to how many of you consider that in your bidding thought process...

Thanks,
Ray Piskadlo

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i have found the same to be true with the "Harris" T206 cards...they usually command more money. i actually don't mind paying a little bit more to have a card that once sat in a very important collection, especially Nagy, who is a hobby pioneer...that card would represent the best example that person had.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You may be mixing up terms here. "Buy the card, not the holder" means take a close look at the card yourself and decide if you agree or disagree with the assigned grade.

With reference to the Nagy or Carter collections, you may be paying a premium for provenance. That's a little different issue, and each collector makes the determination if that provenance is worth a little extra. I think it does in the short term, but won't in the long term, because there will eventually be so many famous collections to hit the marketplace that the label will lose some of its luster.

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Posted By: Dave S

I've sold quite a few E145-2's on Ebay in the last month, among them several from Nagy's Collection. And yes, his cards brought substantially more than expected. Can't prove that was the cause, can't say with certainly that was the reason, but certainly a safe assumption...

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

Barry,

I guess what I'm asking is... Is the card really worth more just because of what is written on the holder?

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Posted By: James Feagin

Not to sound flippant, but I really don't care whose collection a card came from. The only hobby collection I care about is the "James Feagin" collection.

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

James,

That's my point exactly. But I was hoping to hear from people who would pay a premium for it so that I could learn why they think that card is worth more.

Thanks for replying,
Ray

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Provenance can help establish authenticity. Many would prefer a rare Fleer proof that came from the President of Fleer as opposed to one that came from a person no one heard of. Obviously the ownership is relevant to judging if it's a real proof.

A question is, would anyone on this board rather purchase a 1923 Maple Crispette Casey Stengel that was owned by Lew Lipset and that Lipset said was genuine, or a Maple Crispette Casey Stengel that was owned by someone no one ever heard of. I bet you that everyone on this board would pick the former, as the Lipset provenance would make them more sure about the authenticity. And if everyone would chose the card with the Lipset provenance, the provenance must have some financial value.

Per the above paragraph, when someone says they would never pay extra for notable provenance, I don't believe it.

Some people like celebrity ownership and would pay extra for a DiMaggio card that belonged to DiMaggio, or even belonged to Catfish Hunter.

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Posted By: Chad

But I'm glad to have a Crackerjack card from the Nagy collection all the same. It's a pristine card except for a small touch of paper loss on the back. Thank god for grading, because that small paper loss made the card an SGC 10 even though the corners are sharp, the card is well centered, and there's no staining on the front or back. Is nice! as Borat would say.

--Chad

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

From my standpoint, I love the hobby. There are a handful of people who have become icons in the hobby, to the point where they're almost as big as the hobby itself.

When I was a young kid, I read an article in SI about Barry Halper. I've been blown away by his collection, and his presence in the hobby, ever since. For that reason, I made a point of winning something from the Halper Collection in the last REA auction. It's something small, and it's not even noted anywhere as being Halper's (it's a cabinet card of Jake Beckley), but I know it was once a part of a collection that blew me away as a kid. Knowing that there were private collections like Halper's, assembled over the course of years and years, to the point where they became historically significant in and of themselves, was part of what helped keep me interested in the hobby all these years.

I'd love to add one of Lionel Carter's '38 Goudeys to my collection, but for a different reason. I know that his cards were taken out of packs and put right in albums, back in 1938. For that reason, I know those cards are a reflection of what a 1938 Goudey looked like in 1938 - the stock color, the edges, the printing, have all been untouched for all that time. It's truly an original, authentic card that's been virtually untouched in any way since 1938. I'd love to own one - I almost wouldn't even care what card it was.

-Al

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Posted By: T206Collector

I won his T206 Eddie Plank, and am thrilled about it. While I didn't make my bid based on that provenance, I am happy to add a piece of his storied collection to my modest collection.

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Posted By: Dylan

Mr. Carter is one of the few collectors alive who actually opened the packs the cards came from, and collected many of his sets prior to the 1950's. There are a select few names that have reached celebrity status in the hobby due to their collections but more than that people are willing to pay a premium due to the extra security in buying a card that's never(or hasnt in a VERY long time) traded hands. You can feel secure knowing its hasn't been trimmed or altered. And when paying thousands of dollars specifically becauuse it is high grade that means something. With all the talk of doctoring that goes on, I would pay a little extra for a rare super high grade card from Carters collection then one that you know nothing about. Now if its not a high grade card like stated above i wouldn't pay a premium. VG cards from his collection i'd value the same as cards from the "Dylan Jasper" collection

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Posted By: Rich Klein

That one of the signs of the maturing of the hobby will be the provenance factor. Frankly, one of the issues with this is that many of our "2nd generation founders" are still around and putting leading collectors names on slabs IS a good idea both short and long term.

Rich

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i'm not looking to pay more for certain cards from well known collectors, BUT i can see the point and understand how some of these cards command premiums. i used the example of the T206 Harris cards, he, at one point had THE BEST T206 set in existence, it was broken-up and sold off, so to have one of his cards is kind of special, it was an imporatant part of a larger set.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

If I'm going to spend some staggering number on a condition rarity, I sure as blazes will have a lot more peace of mind doing it knowing it came from a collection where the card was literally plucked right out of the pack. This statement is not meant to be a condemnation of the grading services. They do the best they can in detecting alterations/counterfeits. Rather, it is my respect for the prowess of skilled counterfeiters/alterers in plying their trade that I put such a premium on provenance. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that some years down the road the characterization will be not that cards with a pedigree sell for a premium, but that cards without it sell for a discount.

edited to correct spelling error brought to my attention by B. Sloate

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Corey's point is good. For those concerned about recent alterations, Nagy died a good number of years ago and the 'Nagy' labeled cards were consigned directly from his estate. So the cards would be less likely to have made the recent rounds of paper cutters, sandblasters, elecrolisis, etc.

One reason to by a Barry Halper card is you can refer to the 1999 catalog as see it's in the same state as 8 years ago. And Halper wasn't a condition freak, so you know he wasn't the type trying to get a PSA Mint 10. In fact, I believe Halper never had any of his cards graded and the catalog pictures them raw. So any nipping and tucking for professional grading's sake would have happened after those pictures were taken.