GAI CrossOver ---> SGC = ?

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Posted By: Brad

I've been reading / hearing that GAI cards are almost imposable to cross over to a even grade ---> SGC!

Is this true? Can you dispute this claim!

Please post comments on your successful or unsuccessful GAI crossovers.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Are you including crack out and submits, or just cards sent in in slabs with the request to cross them over?

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Posted By: Brad

I'd like to here comments from both sides, Cracked out / GAIslabed!

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I only have experience with cracking cards out, but I had some cards that were graded early on by GAI including some relatively pricey ones that did very well when submitted to other grading services, getting the same grade or even a half grade higher. I think it all depends on the card, although in general I would share the perception that of late GAI's standards especially at the high end are not as rigorous.

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Posted By: PC

It is hit or miss when submitting GAI slabs to SGC for crossover grading, especially if you require a minimum grade for the crossover. But the same can be said for trying to crossover PSA or BVG/BGS.

My only negative experience trying to crossover GAI to SGC was with a 1963 Mantle graded GAI 6. I wanted to cross it to SGC but only at the same grade (SGC 80=6), and SGC disagreed. So, I have a nice 1963 Mantle in GAI 6 in the middle of my SGC graded Mantles. Life could be worse.

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Posted By: Dean H

Here is what I crossed

M116 Pastel Wagner GAI 6.5 - crossed to SGC 6. Obviously they do not have a 6.5 grade so I do not see it as a loss.

T206 Ty Cobb Bat On GAI 5.5 - crossed to SGC 5.5

T206 Ty Cobb Green Port GAI 2.5 - crossed to SGC 2 - Again no 2.5 option for SGC.

T206 Matty Dark Cap GAI 5 - would not cross due to a couple extremely light wrinkles.

1933 Goudey Babe Ruth GAI 4 - crossed to SGC 4

I think SGC is fair when they examine crossovers. I also agree that you have to careful of GAI cards because they are not as strict on surface wrinkles but that does not mean avoid them at all cost either.

This is a small sample but just wanted to share my experience.

Wanted to add that these cards were crossed in GAI holders. No crack outs.

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Posted By: Rhys

I have heard a few horror stories regarding GAI cards. My experiences have always been great with them for both signatures and cards. I have had more cards or signatures rejected by GAI than PSA/SGC comnined. Here is my perception of what is really going on. I obviously have no concrete proff, but it a hypotheitcal situation that happens EVERY DAY in other avenues of the business world so it should not be surprising that it is probably happening in this area of business as well.

GAI is gaining in market share. If you dont believe me, check out their booths at the next Chicago Show or the National. They are friendly, personal, and actually willing to sit and talk with you even though they are always very busy. If I were PSA or SGC, I would be a little worried. So what is the perfect thing to do in order to try and slow their progress are try and put them out of business altogether? Refuse to cross things over or knock them down in grade or question their authenticity. By doing this other companies (a) make themselves look like they are more knowledgable (b) increase their potential future market share (c) still get the money for the current business. It is a no-lose situation for PSA or SGC to do this both in cards and signatures. Would it be wrong for PSA/SGC to do this? Not really, its just business. But I am sure it going on to some degree.

I would love to see a study done with cards submitted in GAI holders or with the labels for crossover and also cards cracked out and sent in anonymously for crossover. It might not be happening and I could be totally wrong, but I doubt it.

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Posted By: Richard

M116 Cobb: SGC 6 - GAI 6.5 - SGC Evid of Trimming - GAI 6.5 - PSA 7
1957 Bill Russell: BVG 6 - GAI 7 - PSA 7
T206 Cobb: GAI 2 - SGC 2

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rhys, I agree that the other companies unfairly punish GAI at times on crossovers. I also believe that GAI deserves a lot of the abuse. As for gaining market share, perhaps their booths are full at shows but their graded cards do not fetch prices even close to SGC and PSA.

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Posted By: Rhys

Jeff

I agree with most of what you have said. Here are my additional thoughts though; GAI is about a half grade to full grade higher on graded cards than SGC but I feel that is more because SGC is unfairly tough on cards more than that GAI is more lax. PSA would probably be about the same as GAI assuming the same guy sent the card in so there is not the preferential treatment factor in play. GAI cards do not fetch the money, and that is almost exclusively their own fault for two things

1 They dont publish population reports

2 They do not do set registry

That IS the current trend in graded cards and they will not get the money for their cards until they get on board with this idea.

I think their popularity at shows is due to the fact that they are actually pleasant to deal with at shows whereas SGC is now a nowshow due to lack of submissions and cost, and PSA is a mess to deal with unless you are major revenue producer for them.

Rhys

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Posted By: rand

its puzzling, why wouldn't GAI start a registry? there is no doubt they are starting to really distance themselves from PSA, & SGC, meaning 3rd place. Now that PSA is grading wax packs, you'd think GAI would offer something new.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This is of course anectdotal; but my experience strictly with GAI differs from what you just stated.
First, I prefer GAI for three reasons....

1....they are always on-premise grading at the Philly Show (PSA no, SGC maybe).

2....Steve, Danny and Mike are very personable and customer friendly.

3....Most important to me is their $5 - PREVIEW feature (others don't offer this).

Let's say I submit 40 cards for PREVIEW (cost $200). And, 1/2 of them Grade 4, 5 or 6. Those I will
have them grade. So, for an additional $100 these 20 are encapsulated.

The lesser 20 aren't worth grading, so it only cost me $100 to find out. Anyhow, these 20 are in
marked soft plastics which have GAI's grade on them; therefore, if a customer is concerned about
the condition of one of these "raw" cards, he has a prof. grade to go by. This technique has worked
out really great for me at the Philly Shows and customers keep returning.

Now, here's where I have to disagree with you, every GAI graded card I have sold (in real time
or on ebay) has garnered a price very similar to its PSA or SGC counterpart.

Perhaps, I am lucky or perhaps it's the way I conduct my business....but, I see no difference.

TED Z

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Posted By: rand

I can only speak for 33 goudeys..but there is a huge difference between GAI and PSA/SGC final pricing. There is also a ton of doubt when it comes to GAI 8/8.5/9 about being unaltered.

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Posted By: Joe D.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I forgot to state that 95% of the cards I was referring to in my post are T206's.
And, since these cards are really "hot" at this time that may slant the pricing.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jason

My only experience was:

T206 Cicotte GAI 3 (looked EX but had small pencil) SGC said they would have to give it a 10.

E92 McGraw blank back GAI 4.5 crossed to an SGC 60

I have a 1954 Topps Kaline GAI 5 and a 1968 Topps Ryan GAI 6 there right now crossing. I will post them Monday.


Jason

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Posted By: rand

T206's, GAI has graded their fare share over the years..and there are 1000's more still raw...why don't they start a Registry for these cards (and others) to get collectors to keep them in their holders? it seems to me the # 1 and only reason for crossing over in general is to help a collectors set registry position. I am not referring to dealers looking for bumps, but in the true collecting sense.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jason, did you crack the cards out first? Or send them in slabbed?

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Posted By: James Gallo

Most of this took place last year.

I submitted 3 basic cello packs to GAI. They got back to me over a month late. It took me about 2 weeks from the due date to even figure out what the problem was. The cases had not come in for the packs. I couldn't believe this, it was totally insane to think any company at any point would run out of cases.

Now I did eventually get a break on my next order from Danny Fisher but that should just never happen.

I have bought 20-25 PSA and about 3 or 4 Cracker Jacks over the last year.

The GAI ones were as follows
GAI 2 went to an SGC 20 with a grade drop. I even had this card reviewed by SGC with no luck.

GAI 1 crossed to an SGC 10, that shouldn't have been an issue at all.

GAI 1.5 crossed fine to SGC 20 but I was concerned a bit.

GAI 3 had 2 yes TWO pin holes through the card. I got killed on this as it went to an SGC 20. This totally turned me off on this company as missing two pin holes in unacceptable.

Not to go off the topic too much, but I feel this holds true for both GAI and PSA. The lower grade cards generally have less of a problem crossing, but trying to cross something above a 6 that can be tricky.

Basically I will never buy a GAI card through the net again unless I have insane close ups and I ask a ton of questions. I have also gotten badly burned on a few PSA buys, but I have had some cards that PSA has killed grade 3 and 4.

It all comes down to buying the card and not the holder.

James Gallo

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Dylan

between sgc and gai i dont see why anyone needs to pay a membership fee to have cards sent in to be graded like psa makes you do. Id be more inclined to use psa from time to time if that werent the case. SGC can be really tough on marks and pencil. GAI is more forgiving with some of those types of issues. I think a card should have a little grade bump that presents really nice no matter the technical grade. SGC always goes with the technical grade which makes them the toughest grader in the business.

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Posted By: Bob

Dylan- I agree. If you have a very nice card but it has a tiny flaw like a little writing on the back, steer clear of SGC, it will drop your card from a 50 to a 10 in a heartbeat. GAI will adjust the grade down to a more realistic level, like a 4 being a 2.5 because of a little writing. I have posted elsewhere my feelings about SGC's 10 and 10 policy. Unfortunately GAI's holder for oversized cards is horrible (unless they have recently changed). As much as I like their regular holder, their oversized one looks like a license plate. SGC on the other hand has a beautiful holder for their oversized cards so all my Zeenuts are SGC despite the bashing and walloping they give for writing on the back of blank backed cards.
tbob

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Posted By: Kevin

Have to go with the majority on this one.

I consider the guys at Global my friends and have been to their HQ many many times. They are friendly, helpful, personable and are always open to new ideas and seek knowledge. That's not to say I don't get pissed when they forget to send my cards back.

I only trust Mike Baker to grade my cards and learn from his teachings and skill. On the flip side I tell him everything I know about altering cards. He gets the step by step “how-to’s” and the “exactly what to look for” when at all possible. He is up to speed on some of the most sophisticated doctoring techniques and has examples of each (some in PSA holders). All my doctored cards, to include the small amount shown here as well as the high-end items, are in his hands. Soon they will be labeled as "doctored" and sent on tour for other collectors to see.

It is a fact that their cards sell for less but this may be to the others giving them a tough time...not quite sure. I still use PSA for some registry stuff.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I have sent in GAI slabbed cards to PSA and SGC and they would not cross them over.

Then I sent in the cards UNSLABBED and they all got graded.

I am 100% convinced that there is a "bias" against GAI at the other companies... and probably even "standing orders" to just kick back everything in a GAI slab.

Sad, but true.

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Posted By: Bob

I hope GAI slabbed cards continue to sell at lower prices, I will be there to pick them up.
Buy the cards, not the holders guys.....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bob, the problem with that theory is when you try to sell the GAI slabs -- and you get hammered. I don't disagree with the notion of buying GAI slabs on the chance that you'll get a good card for a cheaper price; however, you'll then have to crack and reslab in a PSA or SGC holder in order to get full value for your card.

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Posted By: rand

Take a look at this Ruth Goudey that sold for a stupid $880. This card is graded a 1.5, how this card wouldnt be a 1 or even authentic grade, is beyond me. The same thing goes for the Nagy Wagner card, GAI gave it a 3.5, it had no corners to even come close to a 4, SGC regraded the card to a 40/3.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Babe-Ruth-1933-Goudey-GAI-graded-53-RARE-Rookie_W0QQitemZ250083018606QQihZ015QQcategoryZ734 33QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Jason

I crossed them in the slab.

Jason

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Posted By: steve

No original submitter in their right mind would actually CHOOSE to send their card to GAI instead of PSA or SGC.

Fact: GAI doesn't get the prices of PSA and SGC.

Instead, I see GAI as a dumping ground for cards that have already tried and failed at getting into a PSA or SGC case of appropriate grade.

Lots of cards out there where the owner thought it should get a respectable 6, 7, or 8 grade from PSA or SGC. Then the card comes back from PSA or SGC as trimmed, doctored, or just lousy grade.

Only option left is to eat some $$$ and send it to GAI in hopes that they do infact slab it. Otherwise, the owner is stuck with an ungradeable card - very very bad for the money angle.

GAI must have a lot of PSA and SGC "tried but failed" cards go through their company. Some altered cards don't get caught by GAI, hence when tried at crossover, many fail and GAI gets bad rap.

Common sense folks.

Steve

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Posted By: DR

Steve,

A very refreshing and honest commentary of what is 'common' knowledge.

Any card I own GAI graded will be corssed (if possible to PSA or SGC) in the GAI graded slab and if it fails will be sold in the GAI slab. At one time, I was more willing to take a chance with GAI graded cards but no longer. The crossing rate has been dropping over the past year or two.

Does anyone wants to trade PSA or SGC graded cards for GAI graded cards of the same grade? This is a rhetorical question. Keep it real folks!

Thanks,
David

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Posted By: rand

I bought a really nice # 185 33 Goudey GAI 7 for $113 on ebay. This common is a little tougher to get in 7+ grade, if it was in a psa holder it would have sold for $225+, in an SGC holder $225 - 250, so i was elated to snag it in the middle of the afternoon for the price, I sent it to SGC for crossover, i was even willing to accept an 80/6 (knowing something would keep it from a 7) SGC sent it back as possible trim. I traded the card to another person (with a trade value of $150) he cracked it and sent it to PSA..came back trimmed. That was the last GAI card i tried..over 9 months ago.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I joined the GAI club early on - when they were super strict on grading. Most of the cards I sold in GAI holders on eBay I had graded and received some great feedback stating the cards were nicer than the grades. I submitted some 1915 Cracker Jack horizontals to GAI and they were SLAMMED! GAI graded all of them 2's or 2.5's. The cards were VG/EX to EX and, after looking at all of them under loupes to make sure, I cracked them out and sent them in to SGC. Well, to make a long story short all of the CJ's came back either 50's or 60's from SGC!

I believe what others have said as well - I would definitely crack the cards out, then send them in to SGC!

I also owned a GAI 2.5 Croft's Cocoa card. The card was cracked out and sent to SGC - came back a 60 (I didn't submit it - the buyer did)!

It seems GAI has been more lax on their grading lately. However, if you can find some of the early GAI slabs, odds are they are undergraded and present a good value!

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Posted By: Rhys

Steve, that is not a true statement.

A lot of people do choose to submit their cards to GAI without having them ever graded and failing another company. I see it hundreds of times at shows because it is convenient and they actually like being treated nice when submitting their cards. In truth, the only time I ever had a card fail GAI (a 1979 OPC Gretzky Rookie) and tried to cross it over to another company was with SGC and it got an 8.5 NMMT+.

My advice to the people that cant get their GAI cards to cross over... Go buy Joe Orlando or another PSA bigwhig dinner and slip some money under the table like the other big dealers do.

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Posted By: DR

''Go buy Joe Orlando or another PSA bigwhig dinner and slip some money under the table like the other big dealers do.''

I would be very cautious with your statements unless you want to expose yourself to (libel) lawsuits due to defamation. In my experience, PSA and SGC have been just as easy (actually easier) to deal with and VERY pleased with both companies. GAI is a totally different story. They promised an over sized holder would be ready for Mecca Double Folder cards in about a month or two. This was almost 3 years ago and still waiting. Also, if one lives their life out of convenience, I can guarantee you will not only be taken advantage of but finish last! If people select GAI, in my opinion is is due to ignorance or as you so eloquently stated convenience OR much more likely it fails PSA / SGC.

Thanks,
David

BUY / SELL / TRADE -> 1878 TO 1911 NON & MULTI SPORTS

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Posted By: Rhys

OK, for the record I meant slipping some money under the table for a tip on the dinner then.

I have never tried to claim GAI is better, or try to claim their cards sell for more or should sell for more. I dont really even care what graded cards sell for in any avenue because I dont collect them and dont rarely end up selling them. I am simply stating that other companies take jabs at GAI when they can to try and lessen their competition in the business world. I like GAI and will continue to use them, but I know why others dont and that is fine. I just wanted to point a few things out about why you are likely to not get a crossover grade from another company in a GAI holder.

Also, my points about card grading holds true for autograph authentication as well. Companies love deeming their competitors certified pieces as fake when they get a chance. It is simple economics and GAI is the new guy on the block. Maybe they deserve some lumps and I am certainly not an apologist for them so if they deserve to be called out than so be it, but I get the impression they are getting more than their deserving share from the actions of the other companies.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Never mind.

-Al

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Posted By: Brad

D359 TOPSY HARTSEL: has been successfully crossed over to SGC 1.5 with no problems (Yes, I sent the card slabed!)
http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/MapleCrispetteV117/D359%20World%20Champions%20E104-1%20Nadja%20Caramel%20

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Posted By: Bob

No original submitter in their right mind would actually CHOOSE to send their card to GAI instead of PSA or SGC.>>

Steve- kind of an idiotic thing to say, don't you think? I understand you're frustrated with GAI but I have all my mental faculties and I have sent a number of cards to GAI instead of SGC or PSA. In fact, I no longer send any cards to PSA for numerous reasons. I can tell you for a fact that I have sent hundreds of cards to GAI and not a single one was sent first to SGC or PSA to see what they would get with them. They are all first time cards. I like the holders, I like the customer service and I feel that the caramel cards are graded just as harshly with GAI as SGC with the exception that SGC trashes cards with writing on the back while GAI adjusts the grade down accordingly. SGC is also brutal on chipped white borders while GAI is more reasonable (in my mind).
I think Jeff is right when he says that I probably made a mistake sending the cards to GAI instead of SGC or PSA based on monetary return upon sale, but I have to think that a collector seeing a gorgeous E94 in a GAI 4 holder with nice, clear scans is going to bid close to what the value of an SGC 50 or PSA 4 similar card will bring. If not, he is making a huge mistake. I have seen some some overgraded caramels in SGC and PSA holders that can't match up with some of mine in equally graded GAI holders.
tbob

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Posted By: James Feagin

I don't use GAI because of how they have been grading paper loss lately. After buying a GAI 5 with paper loss, I just couldn't risk it anymore. I also loathe that GAI's larger holders are about the size of Kentucky. I think they have had a policy change and one they started grading cards with paper loss higher, they lost a lot of credibility. I do think their regular-sized holders are decent though. However, GAI created their own image problems. They really were gaining market share and dropped it all.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Gai is in a tough situation... damned if you grade too tough damned if you dont. Unfortunatly PSA is so big now due to their long standing place in the hobby that they could make mistakes everyday of the week and not see prices suffer. Hell the PSA 8 Wagner could even turn out to be trimmed and people would still pay top dollar for PSA graded cards! collectors as a whole have so many of their high value cards and their registry collections invested in PSA that they dont want to hold PSA accountable for its mistakes. I see PSA slabs every week where they screw up the set designation, let alone the grades. Where's the quality control?? Arent they supposedly the "industry standard?"

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Posted By: steve

If you are a true set collector who dabbles in the grade range 1-4, then GAI may be the ticket for you.

But if you collect higher dollar cards in higher grades, then GAI makes no sense for monetary return.

Change of pace comment: GAI did slab my exquisite S74 silks and am very disappointed PSA would not. We can send a man to the moon nearly 40 years ago, but PSA can't figure out how to slab a silk ?!? Kudos to GAI on this one.

Steve

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Posted By: Rob

I don't mind a crossover coming back 1/2 grade higher or lower, but whats bothersome is when one grading company declares a card trimmed and a different company gives it an untrimmed-grade.

Heck, people have even given examples of sending the same card back to the same company that originally graded the card as trimmed and the second time it is given a grade. Makes you wonder sometimes how in-depth they look at the cards.

Does grading company xyz spend just as much time ensuring authenticity on a nice wagner as it does on a $15 common in rough shape?

Rob