T213-2 Coupon

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

OK-I just got this from an eBay win, where the seller described it as:

"THIS CARD HAS NO BACK DAMAGE (SMALL SPOT OF PAPER LOSS ON TOP BACK. THESE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN HARD TO GRADE DUE TO THE FACT THAT THESE TOBACCO CARDS WERE INSERTED INTO TOBACCO PACKS IN 1914 AND HAVE A FRAGILE GLOSS MADE FRONT OF CARD. SO WHEN YOU FIND THEM, THEY USUALLY HAVE CREASES. CLEAR PHOTO IMAGE GRADES GOOD-VG. HAS THE COMMON GLOSS CREASE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS CARD ISSUE. o/c card"



I have no problem with the front but the back (which was not shown in the auction listing) certainly DOES appear to have back damage). Based upon this description I would have expected something like the small paper loss in the bottom left quadrant (beteween NEW ORLEANS and the Factory #) but the top of the card is indeed damaged IMO.

Now, I do not want to return a Coupon but am wondering if I should request a partial refund (say 20%) for a misdescribed item. His Neutral/Negative feedback clearly indicates he has grading issues and he seems to have neg'd people who post negative feedback. On the plus side, he shipped very quickly and the front of the card displays better than either his or my scan shows. I am also loathe to lose my 100% positive eBay feedback and get the feeling an inquiry could provoke a neg. The card was not terribly expensive either (well under $100). So, any suggestions or am I just being overcautious?

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Posted By: Steve M.

Sounds like a Tobeecat description. He has a nice Murray up now described in the same manner.

If it is Tobeecat he's kinda tough to deal with. If it's not him, I apologize.

I would ask for a reduction. The paper loss is not "small" so asking for 20-30% doesn't seem out of line.

Let us know how it comes out.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Yes, it is the abovementioned Tobeecat. Looked at a couple of these, with essentially the same description. But with no back scans, I wouldn't touch them. Now we know why there were no scans.

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Posted By: andy becker

it does sound like an old timer graded it.
for less than $100, i would let it go....and learn a cheap lesson. ask for scans when the seller does not provide them. especially when the seller states that there is back damage.
it's a litte more effort, but i always ask for back scans if not provided.....if i have serious interest.

also, i think it will be an sgc 20 if you grade it. that's not too bad.

lastly, if you sell with the ebay id you bought it with....i would not trash your perfect feedback for less than $100.

edited to add....i see it is brian (tobeecat)....just let it go. i will save you much aggrevation.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Well, you guys nailed the seller's ID pretty quick! I have sent a polite note asking for a partial refund. I'll post the result.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If that doesn't qualify as back damage, what does?

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Posted By: leon

Am I the only one that sees the words "small spot of paper loss on the back"?....I am not taking up for Brian but it is what it is.....the "no back damage" is somewhat misleading though..

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Leon-my point exactly. If you mention no back damage I don't expect a large portion of the back to be peeled off. I fully expected "small" paper loss but of the type at the bottom of the card. I probably should have asked for a back scan in hindsight.

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Posted By: Steve M.

is too subjective. I've seen collectors who will go nuts over a pin head size amount of paper loss.

The loss at the bottom under the "N" is my definition of "small" paper loss. The loss at the top is not.

But that's just me.

EDIT: The moral here is ASK FOR A SCAN. If the seller won't provide, DON'T BID!!

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Posted By: leon

Don't get me wrong I agree with you guys...and I ALWAYS have big front AND back scans of my sales stuff...my motto is always "no surprises" when I sell something...which I feel should be the motto of everyone...but unfortunately it's not....caveat emptor...and with some, more so than others .....

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I won 2 lots from Tobeecat a few weeks ago.

I think I got ok deals on both. Won the first. sent a check. Won the second. Told him I had and asked about holding the first mailing until after he'd gotten the second check so I could save on shipping. He emailed back saying he'd already shipped, so I mailed the second check. The first package arrived postmarked the day AFTER the email saying he'd already mailed.

He made extra on the postage. I lost a bit on it. He lost a potential bidder forever. The next thing he'd have had that I'd have won or bid in second on will be his loss.

How much did you pay for the T213? I might just buy it from you...


Frank.

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Posted By: Steve M.

apparently you missed this wonderful thread on Mr. Tobeecat.

Enjoy the read:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1160616154/Brian+Cataquet+%28tobeeecat%29

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Yah, this might be a tough slog. Well, I have the message in to him. Will likely stay away from his auctions in the future.

Frank-I am going to keep the card either way I think. Nice one for the type colection.

Dave

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

just so you'll laugh "old school grader" TobeeCat is about 23 years old or so. He is a kid wit a bunch of cheap suits and New York swagger~.

BcD

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

I have won three or four cards from him over the years as he does periodically offer some difficult types. A few years back I won an e107 but at that time his scans were much worse than they are now. Figuring I was going to spend quite a bit of money on the card, I emailed him with a slew of questions about the card, asking for better scans, any paper loss/back damage, creases, back caption etc.. His reply:

"vgex 150 back"

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Posted By: Dylan

I recently purchased a T213-2 Wagner from him and sent out a money order. A week later i saw what appeared to be my card with the same exact listing description.. card condition and all. I emailed him and asked if he received my payment and to verify if it was my card his response was "HAVE MANY"
I thought ok, kinda strange with the same description listing, but as long as i get my card i guess im ok. I sent another message saying i was putting together a collection of T213 and wanted to know how many he'd be auctoning off in the near future. I dont think i got a response from that question. Certainly not the warmest, most friendly seller ive encountered.

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Posted By: John S

Dave,

Are satisfied with the card as a type specimen? An intact reverse would be nice if this is your only example. I would continue to pursue Brian. At the very least he should allow you to exchange the card for one with a complete reverse. Coupons are relatively tough and if you expected an entire card (and bid accordingly) you should have received one.

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Posted By: martindl

Some refresher tips for any newbies out there. David, not suggesting you are one, but this thread serves as a good reminder for people.

* always, always, seek back scans, or better resolution front scans if the original is not to your liking. regardless of the wording in a description a pictures tells a lot more
* lack of response to your request is probably an indicator of the service level of the seller
* research the seller - read the feedback - if a seller has comments about their grading being high or low, then assume the same applies to the card you're bidding on
* always look at what else the seller has for sale or has sold in the past 30 days - if they've got a bunch or repro stuff or questionable items, assume you'll be getting the same
* look to see what the seller has been purchasing, for the same reason as above

I've ignored my own advice a few times and have some nice misgraded items to show for it.

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Posted By: peter ullman

ah yes good ol' brian cataquet. the seemingly angry young man...I've bought numerous cards from him and the lower prices usually make up for the vague/inaccurate descriptions. He wouldn't combine my shipping for 2 itmes once and he also told me to never bid on his auctions again. But I did and still do.
pete in mn

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Posted By: Bob

When it comes to grading it seems we sometimes give some sellers or companies free passes because they grade "old school" or are "newbies" but this seller has a long history and anyone dealing with him who has been reading posts on this board from disgruntled buyers, does so at their own peril.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Thanks for all the input guys. I have not heard from him after 24 hours and doubt I will. I am not going to return the card beacuse they are, as you all know, hard to find and the front is pretty nice. I also believe if I return it there will be a huge hassle which will ultimately result in his posting negative feedback. The card is for a type collection of T cards so the back is disapointing but I can always find another someday and then sell this one.

My biggest problem is that the auction description said "NO BACK DAMAGE". I don't have a problem with him being a surly sort (well maybe a little) but the description was deceitful. The guy has very high overall feedback numbers and while I checked some recent transactions I should have gone to the neutral/negative feedback site when I say he was below 99% as it would have told the story. I have been buyng and selling cards for 26 years now, including 8 on eBay and this is only the second problem I've ever had on eBay and the first with a seller (I had a bidder renege on an auction once and I did leave negative feedback for that). I returned some things two or three times in my life to dealers at shows, either day of or next show. and never had a problem and when I was a weekend warrior I also had things returned to me and I always gave a refund. This guy just does not care about the negative feedback potential and I do plus his record on returns looks really awful, so I'll just end up being a little unhappy. Unless he comes back with something stupid, I'm movin on......

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Lo and behold, 5 minutes after the last post I got his response:

"Hi, the description states "tiny paper loss on the back" . i forgot to delete the line that said no back damage since i copy and paste the same description to save time since i have many t213's in my possession. It does say paper loss on back. be good"

Like I said, movin' on............

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Posted By: Dylan

Like i said bro, he used the SAME EXACT description for my Wagner T213 as the one he sold a week later to someone else. Its not that he forgot, he just doesnt care