T206 rare backs...currently speaking..

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Posted By: Dave

According to T206museum.com these are the approximate multipliers for the follwing rare backs...yes, I know you can't necessarily go by these numbers at all....am curious though with the numbers the site has what any collector of the following backs have noticed more recently...prices up? down?

here is what the site lists

Broadleaf 460 Series...70x multiplier for common card
Drum 350 Series...65x multiplier for common card
Brown Lenox...60x multiplier for common card

And the more commingly found..

Red Hindu...17x multiplier for common card
Black Lennox..17x multiplier for common card
Uzit...30x multiplier for common card



My own guesses (which may not be worth anything)...

Broadleaf 460, Drum 350 and Brown Lenox's wouldn't go for 60-70x multiplier....I would think more like 30x for common cards

Red Hindu's and Black Lennox's...would go for more like 10x the common card...not 17x.

Uzit...I think are right in line...30x...and imo right inline with the "top three" backs..

So......anyone?

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Posted By: Lee

Dave,

I have had much experience with rare backs, and here is what I think about common prices:

UZIT = approx 35X
Drum = Approx 60X
Red Hindu = 17-20X
Black Lenox = 15X

BL 460 and brown lenox are hard to predict because they don't come up for sale publicly that often.

Lee

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Posted By: Dave

Interesting...based on that...a typical common Drum 350 in a PSA 1 or SGC 10 you'd have no problem in saying the average price of a sale for such would be $1,500?


Edited to say I based a PSA 1 or SGC 10 common at $25.

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Posted By: Lee

PSA 1 common to me is $15, I usually hold out for bargains...I have never paid more than $20 for a PSA 1 common with a common back. $25 is PSA 2 territory.

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Posted By: peter ullman

assuming a g-vg t206 common goes for $30 graded...I'd venture the following:

drum $12-1500
uzit $1000-1200
lenox $ 4-600
red hindu $4-600
bl 460 $12-1500
br lennox 12-1500

JMHO

pete in mn

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Posted By: MVSNYC

you guys can figure out the multipliers, but here is my 2 cents...just a few examples.


drum2 $2000
drum1 $1200

uzit3 $1800
uzit2 $1000
uzit1 $600

lenox3 $600
lenox2 $400
lenox1 $250

red hindu1 $400

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Posted By: peter ullman

me thinks we're pretty close.

pete in mn

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Posted By: Lee

Pete, do you want to sell a red hindu? e-mail me if yo do

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Posted By: peter ullman

sorry lee...just a teaser as I have only 1 left! The 3 finger Brown...the others should reside on the board.

pete in mn

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Posted By: Lee

Pete, no prob. I already have 2 red hindu, but they both have a good amount of back damage. I'm looking to upgrade...

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Posted By: cn

About a month ago I picked up a SGC 40 Uzit Crawford batting for a little under $2000. I think it was a fair price as I have not seen many Uzit cards in this condition let alone a Hofer.CN

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Posted By: Dave

So would you guys personally spend more on a PSA 1 Broadleaf 460 or a Brown Hindu?

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Posted By: peter ullman

r u joking dave? 1 bl 460 = 20-25 brown hindu's?

pete in mn

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Posted By: Dave

Pete, I just noticed that...ha ha...I meant one Broadleaf 460 or one Brown Lenox

I must have been listening to an old Cat Stevens song...hence the Brown Hindu error

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Posted By: Sean

Dave,
I'm guessing you mean Brown Lenox, but I would take the BL 460.

Sean BH

**Edited to add - you did

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Posted By: Lee

I would pay much more for a BL 460, hands down!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

BL 460 anyday...

the brown Lenox, IMO, is faded black, i know that others feel differently, but if i was goign to spend $2000+ on a back, i would choose the BL 460, knowing 100% that it is a legitimate variation.

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Posted By: Dave

Lee....is it because you feel Broadleaf 460's are that much more rare to pop up or because you just like the design of the back better? I haven't seen where brown lenox's are any more common.

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Posted By: Dylan

Out of all the backs its speculated that the two rarest are the Southern League Old Mill factory 649 overprints(even rarer then the controversial Ty Cobb "King of the smoking world" back). Has anyone here on the board owned one, or atleast seen one? I've never seen a value multiplier listed for them anywhere, so obviously these rarely come to auction. Any estimates what there value is, can anyone post a scan, or any info on previous sales?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i have always viewed the over print Old Mills, as printing freaks...

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Posted By: Dave

When it comes to the rare backs...the Lenox's and Old Mill's with the brown lettering, I know there is a big debate with Lenox's being brown or faded black..is there the same debate with the Southern Old Mill's or are they more easily recogonized as a brown? If anybody has a brown Lenox or brown southern old mill I'd love to see them posted. With SGC and PSA as well now putting the back label on the front of the card do either actully note on the card's label "Brown Lenox" or just "Lenox"?

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Posted By: peter ullman

there was a brown lenox backk on ebay this past year and head to head photos of the black vs brown backs were displayed and this topic debated. I DO believe the brown lenox back is brown...and not faded black but would pay more for a bl 460...personally.

pete in mn

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Posted By: Lee

Dave,

First of all, I just plain like the broadleaf back design, it has been growing on me. Second, I'm sceptical on the existance of the brown lenox, I would rather purchase a BL 460 for more money that I know is a true rarity. I'm not putting down brown lenox if it really exists, I just have my doubts. I guess I will never have a brown lenox because I have a hard time justifying that type (amount) of money for a card that may just be due to fading.

Regards,
Lee

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Posted By: brian

Hi Lee,
I have been collecting rare backs for more than 25 years, and can tell you that both Lenox and Old Mill Browns do exist. Actually, I was even more skeptical than you and had to purchase one or hold one to be convinced. Now that I have owned one Brown Old Mill and held one more, I am 100% certain that the ink is not faded , but Brown. I have also handled 5-6 Brown Lenox, and while slightly different in appearence, they too are brown, not faded.

Personally, I think the printers may have run out of black ink,and substituted with brown figuring no one would notice or care.

Be well Brian

PS For the record I consider both to have been mistakes, rather than changes.

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Posted By: Kevin

Be very cautious and give it a good inspection...black can be changed into any shade of brown, it's been done. Black, on the other hand, is a secure color.

Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: JimB

I would take a brown Lenox over BL46o.

Brian,
If you have an extra that you are willing to part with, please contact me.
JimB

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Posted By: H Murphy

Would love to eventually purchase a B L 460!

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Posted By: Dave

Are you aware of SGC or PSA either one actually put on the label insert "brown" or just lenox or old mill?

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Posted By: Lee

I too am looking for a BL 460 to buy. I almost bought the back damaged one on eBay last year for over a grand. This price was a bit steep for the terrible condition, but I have not seen one for sale since (approx. 6 months). Last year there may have been one in an auction house in the last 6 months of 2006, but I did not catch it. I know last year (I think), Huggins and Scott sold a group of BL 460, 350, and a red hindu that now resides on cardtarget.com

Lee

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Posted By: Lee

Dave,

I know SGC will do it, I'm not sure about PSA

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Posted By: Dave

I guess what would worry me is even going on Brian's advice that there are definately browns, if PSA doesn't label a card as such I wonder how many faded blacks are sold as browns?

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Dave,

About a year ago I saw a Lajoie (With Bat) in an SGC 50 holder labelled "Brown Lenox". Not sure how PSA would handle it.

Scot

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Posted By: brian

Hi Dave,
I wouldn't buy either of these backs based on the description on a holder. I would be more concerned with the person selling the cards credibility and return policy. In other words, if Lew Lipset is the seller, I wouldn't worry about it.


Hi Scot,
The Lajoie graded by SGC was sold by Hunt Auctions sometime last year. I know that it is a legit Brown, as our friend Art Martineau viewed the card at the sale.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i have been actively looking for a Broad Leaf 460, and even posted a "want-ad" in the BST with ZERO responses...

so i'll make it known here, that i am willing to pay BIG for one.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Brian,

I remember (you may too) that the Lajoie Brown Lenox was offered raw on eBay by Adam Wilder (kingadam) a couple of years ago for something like $3K and had no takers. I believe Adam then sent the card to SGC and was able to sell it once it was in the 50 holder. I always thought the card was a legitimate Brown Lenox but passed on it when raw because Adam indicated it had a small surface wrinkle. Anyway, nice card.

Scot

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Dave,

I have about a dozen or so Lenox back T206s. 1 is brown and SGC graded 30 and labeled brown back. I bought the brown back from a board member a few years ago. There is no question it is brown and a darker brown than Hindu.
I will get you some scans later.

Also the brown Lenox cost me more than the BL 460.If you are a true rare back collector you will need the BL460 and the brown Lenox in your collection.The longer you wait the more it will cost.

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Posted By: Dave

yes would be very interested to see the scan of your brown lenox. I'm really hardly a true rare back collector....money plays a part. I am in the middle of a transaction from a board member for my first lenox back..but not a brown.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scot,
Here's a scan of the Lajoie.... Sold for 2800 in the Feb 2004 Hunt Auction:

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Posted By: Anonymous

Maybe you just have to hold one to notice the differance..or maybe my eyes are just that bad. Here is a scan of the card on the way from Tom B to me. To me a "faded" black doesn't look much differant..maybe one of you guys with 20/20 vision will think differant.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

sorry guys, my computer is not loading these scans...can you guys attach them as links?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Sent email with attachment Michael

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i hate to be the big skeptic here, but i really think it's gotta be faded...

i respect all of your opinins, i guess i just have to see one up close (i do actually have 20/20 vision), then i can make an objective opinion.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

well, guess what guys? i just recieved a few scans from Brian...i'll be...for the first time, i am really considering that it just might be a real brown ink variation. this goes against all of my other posts regarding this subject, but it really does not just look like faded black...

would still love to see them in person.

brian, do you still own any brown lenoxs or old mills?

if we meet for dinner next week in NC, maybe you can bring them?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Michael,
I don't own the Brown Old Mill anymore, but I do know the owner, and he does post some on the board. Dinner would be great, just let me know when you're going to be in town and I'll check my schedule. Be well Brian

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Posted By: MVSNYC

brian- thanks, i'll email you

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have to say it doesn't look faded...it looks brown!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i found this old thread...it speaks about brown old mills, overprints, etc...can anyone post pics of the old mill overprints (double overprints)? thanks.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1134240947/last-1134580104/T206+Question+(MastroNet)