Sold on Ebay- T204 Ramly PSA 4 Walter Johnson

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Can you believe that on Thursday the Walter Johnson went for over $14,000. Way over priced as far as I'm concerned, looks like people are willing to pay big bucks for mid-grade prewar Hall of Famers.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Jerry

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that considered his rookie card and I think a PSA5 one sold in mastro for 25K a year or two ago.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Jerry,

Most people consider the T204 to be Johnson's rookie, I can see people paying lots for a high-grade copy, but for a card with quite a bit of wear on the corner and edges, $14,000 is a lot.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Jerry

I agree that the price seems high for that card, I was just comparing the price to the mastro one which wasn't a very attractive 5.

[Archive]

Posted By: mark

I would be very mad to pay $14,000 and have that card in a holder like that. Plenty of room to bounce around.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Peter,
It may have been a high end 4 that whoever won plans on trying to cross it over and get a SGC 60 out of it. For me anyway it's often hard to tell in detail about Ramly's condition with scans. The colors of the card seem to hide alot in scans.

Dave

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Dave,

I agree with you and I assume that the buyer was familiar with the set and was willing to take a chance. A pretty big gamble. I would have been more willing to bid if it was a SGC 50. However, if the buyer crosses over there's no guarantee that the card would grade that high.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

The other issue is that card got more than its share of publicity. It not only was a 10 day auction but it also was listed for a few days before in another auction...so everybody and thier brother knew it was there by the end.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I thought it would bring in $15k...

so I think it was right in line.

Not saying I would pay that much...

but I figured some other folks would.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I don't regularly look for T204s so I missed this one, but the price does not surprise me either if it was a nice looking 4. That card has been hot and rising for a couple of years now. It is the rookie card for arguably the best pitcher of all time; it is the key card in a classic set; and it is beautiful - not to mention pretty tough to find. It has a lot going for it.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Wesley

Isn't the T206 hand at chest also released in 1909?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I could be wrong, but I thought T204 was 1908. Others here like Peter or Scott B. or Hal will know for sure. By the way, I think as a general rule, the portraits in T206 came out in the 150 series andwere generally the first cards in T206 for those that ended up having multiple poses. The T206 experts like Scot and Ted can probably confirm that. Who knows where these random tidbits of information in my mind come from.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Cat

I was the underbidder at $14,102.14. I thought my bid stood a good chance of holding. Due to the sellers account problems, I thought that some might be scared away...especially if they did not read the explanation that was offered on this board. It got to $9,100 fairly rapidly, so I was a bit concerned. If I didn't own a PSA 3 already, I may have been willing to push $1K or $2K more and it could have very well reached the $15K level.

It seems as if the SGC 60 that sold in Mastro a couple of years ago has really pushed the pricing on this card.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- the majority of the T206 portraits were taken from Horner Studio photographs, and many of them, such as Kid Elberfeld, were shot as early as 1903. So while I do believe T204 beat T206 to the marketplace, those photos were around for a long time before that.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Cat- the Johnson is the #1 card in the Ramly set (save the square borders, of course), and I think there is a certain cache to owning the premier card of any set.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Barry,

I agree with you, however, it normally only holds true if you are talking about a near mint to mint card. But the Ramly Johnson is far from being in that condition.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Peter,

I think the Johnson is considered the premier Ramly to own regardless of condition.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I agree with what Barry and Josh have said: it's the premeir card in a much loved set -- and is the rookie card of perhaps the top pitcher of alltime. And let's say the card is only 'worth' 14K -- if you want the card, you're going to pay an extra grand or two to get it. That card doesn't come around all that often.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Come to think of it, I'm very surprised the Burkett isn't the most expensive card in the set, considering cards of him are virtually nonexistent. It's not like you are going to find a Just So, so where else can a Hall of Fame collector get one?

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Burkett has got to be one of the toughest HOFers to find -at least of the HOFers that appear on more than one card. He appears individually on the following sets, that I know of:

Just So
Ramly
Koester Bread
W600 Sporting life

There is 1 Just So Burkett, and 1 or 2 Sporting Life Burketts I believe. Is the Ramly the most "common" of Burkett's cards???

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I wasn't aware Burkett was on a Koester bread (how old is he?); I think both W600 and Just So are unique, so that leaves Ramly, not exactly a plentiful set. So why doesn't that card cost a fortune?

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Bland

Here is Jesse in the Koester bread set - I post this every chance I get; its my favorite card - As you can see, he is well past his playing weight.

Amazingly enough there is a card of Wilbert Robinson (W501 I believe) that shows him in the same pose, holding a similar bag, and carrying a lot of extra weight as well - makes for a great display piece!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Phil Garry

I think that some people would consider the 1907-09 Novelty Cutlery P/C Johnson to be his Rookie Card since it was issued at the same time or earlier than the Ramly.

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron

Anybody have a scan of the 1907-09 Novelty Cutlery P/C Johnson. I don't think I have ever seen this before?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

You can see the card

[Archive]

Posted By: Aaron

By the way I asked the winning bidder of the PSA 4 Johnson if he was planning on selling it, he said he was going to keep it for his private collection. I was interested to know what it would sell for at a REA or Mastro auction. Glad he's keeping it though, great card to keep.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

You guys kill me 14 grand for this card, 22 grand for this one, 37 grand for that one. Sheesh, it's a wonder I ever win any cards at auction at all...

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan

Quote from Hank Thomas, Grandson of Walter Johnson:

"there are enough resemblances in the face, body, and uniform to have caused me to look very closely at the picture to be certain." Basically, to sum this up, some would argue that this is him and some have not, at this point am looking for someone to help me validate what I have here. This item has been up before and I have kept silent for some time about it, but when I saw this post regarding Johnson, I wanted to pipe up about it.

Ted Golden had showed to some folks last year I think was the last time the image went around.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

There is a resemblance, but it is inconclusive. Is there a photographer's stamp and city on the back of the mount? If the photo was taken in a place that Johnson would have lived as a youth, that's a big plus. Otherwise, I would venture less than 50-50 it is Johnson.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

That looks like Hank Thomas himself!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I am looking for honest opinions and effort if you have insite to this, if not, don't help. It is certainly someone, Hank it is not that is for sure.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Kravitz

IMO - The image looks too young to be Johnson.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

This appears in many peoples opinions to be a young, if not very young Johnson. Even the team uniform is inline with that idea. Has anyone seen a young Johnson pic? item? etc... ? Could be earlier than we have previously seen.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

If my memory is correct Walter started his ball playing days on the West Coast in some company leagues. If this is Walter it would be his team uniform if they even had any. I have the book on his and pretty sure it mentioned what teams he did play on but I can't find it right now. Will try to dig it up later.

[Archive]

Posted By: BlackSoxFan

Daniel and I spent some time discussing this image approximately a little over a year ago. I put Daniel in touch with Mr. Thomas and with Walter Johnson's business representatives (CMG Worldwide). I myself spoke at length with them regarding this piece. While it certainly looks a lot like Walter, no one was willing to affirmatively state that it is him. I myself do not believe it is him (or i would have purchased this item), but it CERTAINLY could be. I believe I talked to DRC about this and he did not think it was Walter.
I have an extensive collection of images relating to Walter (after all - he is my favorite non-Black Sox). Unfortunately, none of those images date to his time in Idaho. Walter spent his final two years of minor league ball playing in a semi-pro league in Idaho. He played for the team based out of Weiser. So it would not surprise me to see Walter playing in a jersey with a W on it.
If this is him, then the image almost certainly dates to the mid-00's as Johnson played for Weiser from 1905 until the middle of 1907. I had intended to do some calling around the local Weiser area to see if anything else would help figure out who is pictured. Unfortunately, I have been too busy to ever get around to doing that.

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

email me
The Black Sox Blog

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Johnson would have been between 17 and 19 during those years, and the boy in that picture looks to be barely 15. I think without some kind of corroboration, you will never get a unanimous opinion that it is Johnson. My take is it is a boy who has some resemblance to him, and from years of doing photo i.d., I know you can always find someone unknown who resembles someone famous. You need more documentation than just "they look similar".

[Archive]

Posted By: BlackSoxFan

You care correct Barry. Although I'm not very good at judging people's ages. Again, Johnson's grandson and the people who handle his estate are both of the belief it is someone else. I agree with them.

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

email me
The Black Sox Blog

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach Rice

Here is another cabinet of what I would presume a teammate of the player pictured in the one above. Same style cabinet, background, etc.

[Archive]

Posted By: bill

anyone have a guess at what this might grade at

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

that depends on a little better look, I am assuming there are no creases, wrinkles, back damage, corners retouched etc. That being said, assuming it's clean, on the wrong day it might get a 5.

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I agree with Scott. Assuming there are no problems that are not visible in the scan, I would say 6 on a good day, 5 on an average day.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Thomas

5/6 if no creases

[Archive]

Posted By: bill

why 5 - 6 It looks better to me just the one border has a slight
nick I guess a little off center will that drop the grade that far
I don't get it...

bill