O/T If McGwire Doesn't Go Into Hall then Clemens ...

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Posted By: peter chao

Should Not Get In

Guys,

If the HOF voters want to be consistent, that's the only way they can vote. However, there's no requirement that the voters be consistent, and there is evidence that opinions change readily.

Peter

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Same with Pedro Martinez!


Steve

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Posted By: peter chao

Steve,

The sad thing is that there has been a substantial number of MVPs and Cy Young award winners in the last 15 years that have been sullied with accusations of steroids. Are all these guys going to be exluded from the Hall. It alreadly looks like Canseco will never get close...

Peter

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Posted By: peter ullman

pedro on steroids...cmon? Roger will get in...1st ballot regardless.

pete in mn

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Posted By: peter chao

pete in MN,

If the HOF standard is if there is a strong possibility that an athlete took steroids he is morally unfit then Clemens should not get in.

Peter

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Posted By: Cobby33

It seems to me that McGwire was 86'd because of his conduct at the Congressional committee hearing, not because of the juice allegations.

Allowing the HOF voting committee to determine who is on 'roids and who isn't (and of their guesses, who would nonetheless be eligible for HOF), could very well bastardize the entire process.

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Posted By: Bob

I think we are missing the boat here, HDH is still not tested for and that is the major drug being used, not steroids. Bud Selig can not retire soon enough for me...

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Posted By: peter chao

Cobby,

Since when has conduct at Congressional Hearings ever been relevant to a players HOF qualifications. If the voters are going to use some new criteria, they should inform the players.

Peter

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Posted By: Darren

HGH - human growth hormone

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Posted By: peter ullman

peter...my perspective is from the public perception of mac, sosa, palmeiro, etc. These three and others have been caught or basically admitted guilt. While it is pretty obvious to me Clemens probably used something...as did many others...public perception in addition to the #'s is paramount!

I mean what % of players in the HOF did not cheat in some way shape or form in their respective careers?

pete in mn

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Is anyone else surprised that Albert Belle gets no respect from the voters? They might not have liked him as a person but the guy had a 10 year stretch of hitting .300 with 1199 rbi's. If others with short career make it with lesser numbers why is he so under respected that no one notices he wont even be on the ballot next year?

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Posted By: peter ullman

apparently moral character/likeability DOES matter! Belle was a jerk...like Bonds...only Bonds's #'s are impossible to ignore...so he'll get in unless he's proven guilty of having cheated.

pete in mn

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Posted By: DJ

I disagree. If we don't allow Clemens in, then we should simply close the Hall down and refuse to allow any more inductions.

It's impossible to separate who cheated and who did and what one thinks is cheating, another doesn't. While McGwire hides like a nancyboy (guilt?), Clemens hasn't been indicted in anything.

If closing the Hall is a bit drastic, then we should simply begin inducting those who didn't play during the juiced era.

You will have more like next year's class, players that can't make it during a good year, but can make it during a slow year. That makes no sense to me. If Goose isn't good enough to be in five years ago, why is he good enough in 2008?

DJ

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Posted By: Cobby33

Peter C:

My observation was not mine alone. Most in the media acknowledge that had McGwire been more forthcoming at the hearings and had not played stupid, he would be in the Hall now.

I'm not sure I disagree with that. As others have pointed out, off-the-field conduct should matter as well and perjury and/or being too coy, should factor into the ultimate decision.

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Posted By: peter ullman

dj and cobby...i agree!!!

pete in mn

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Posted By: peter chao

Peter U,

I agree that there are moral requirements to becoming a member of HOF. But being likeable is not a requirement and if it was then Cobb, Evers and whole bunch others would have to be thrown out.

Peter

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If he'd come clean or denied it, one way or the other, I think he'd have been voted in. Weaseling around was the worst thing he could do. I still think he will make it next time around. This time was a protest vote and next year is a lousy class.

I don't see Clemens as equivalent to Bonds or McGwire. He hasn't been caught using illegal and banned drugs (Bonds, Palmiero) and he didn't dissemble in front of Congress.

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Posted By: peter chao

Adam, Pete in Mn, guys,

You are now telling me it's important to be popular (likeable) in order to get into the Hall. Then BBonds might as well hang up his spikes right now because he will never get in.

Peter

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Posted By: peter ullman

peter...I think "character" is considered in hof voting. That said...Adam is right...if Big Mac admitted one way or the other most people would have some/more respect for him and he's be more likely to be voted in. No matter what stats Bonds ends up with...if he's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's guilty...he may not ever get in.

I'm not saying I agree with this...but the late 80's-90's and beyond in baseball will be known as the steroid years and the greatest players of the era...should be admitted to the hall.

I personally think the different characters and circumstances of the era that helped shape the players adds spice to the history of the game and makes it interesting. If all players were as boring as Awad...how lame would baseball be?


pete in mn

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Adam,

I will give you 10 to 1 odds against him making it next year--my $100 against your $10.

Jim

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Posted By: Brett

Steroid users should be banned from baseball.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

I like it, let's convert this forum into a black market gambling den.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe D.

Maybe Griffey Jr. should get some more respect today.

I know he is oft injured.


But the guy has always remained skinny - doesn't look like he ever touched roids.


He and his numbers may be unmatched by current ballplayers who have not taken performance enhancing junk.

A newfound respect for Griffey Jr and his accomplishments?

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Posted By: peter chao

Pete in Mn,

Character is part of HOF standards, however, that is even more slippery than popularity. There are places where terrorists are held in high esteem, but obviously not here in the U.S.

The above was not a politcal statement.

Peter

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Posted By: peter ullman

touche Pete...I'm just saying different times call for different standards and values and ideals change over time. That said...what is perceived as acceptable by society changes over time and thus standards for applicants of most institutions change as well.

pete in mn

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Posted By: peter chao

Pete in Mn, guys,

I agree with you but the ballplayers need to be informed. A young Cal Ripken may be thinking I'd like to get into the HOF someday, but I have no idea of how popular or what they mean by high character.

And yes, Junior Griffey is a no doubt HOF.

Peter

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Posted By: PC

Pete: given the inflated prices some are paying for the cardboard we collect, I'd venture that there is already quite a bit of gambling going on here.

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Posted By: Jay

Clemens has been the model ballplayer. There is no evidence that he has taken any drugs, ever. He just works harder than anyone else in baseball. He is argueably the greatest pitcher ever and we should enjoy what he does on the field instead of making up stories about what he has done off the field. Actually, if you want to talk about what he does off the field look up the Roger Clemens Foundation and see all the good he does.

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Posted By: Jason L

exactly right !
often obscured by his injuries...if he had a stronger (meaning more durable) body, that would have allowed full seasons of play, I strongly believe Junior would be thought of as one of the top 3 to ever play the game.

Totally off the cuff, obviously, as I don't know the guy, but honestly, does it look like he even knows where the weight room is? I think he is the best pure talent in the game, over the last 10+ years. What he was doing in the mid 90s was a pure joy to watch

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Posted By: barrysloate

I say start throwing guys out with marginal stats who are already in- George Kell, Bill Mazeroski, et al. Just call up their families and tell them to come down and pick up their ancestor's plaques because we've reconsidered and we've yanked them off the wall. Then the Hall would be filled with only the truly great!

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Posted By: peter chao

Okay Barry,

That's a great idea, why don't you just go and call Maz and tell him that he's been thrown out of the Hall. I'm behind you......way behind you.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't want to do it, he'll beat me up...let some big guy do it

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The honest players who didn't use drugs shouldn't blame the sports writers or suspicious fans.
They should blame the players who used drugs then lied about it. They should blame the lockerroom
culture that prevented players from being honest (tell the truth and you're a snitch). They should
blame Don Fehr.

Do you know what Dusty Baker's problem with Jason Grimsley talking about the drugs he used and where he
got them? Grimsely was a 'snitch.' Do you know what Jeff Nelson's and Ozzie Guillen's issue with Grimsley
talking about steroids? Grimsley was a snitch. 'Snitch' is the word they used. Do you know why players
got mad at Ken Caminitti? Because he was candid about steroids. If he lied and denied like Rafael Palmiero,
players would have had no issue with Caminitti.

And non-using players blame the fans and sportswriters for doubting the honesty and candidness of players?
Even MLB managers see red when a player dares be candid about steroids.

My problem with the 'but it wasn't against the rules' argument, is that it was the players who voted for
the rules. The rules couldn't have existed without being okayed by the players. Players knew steroids was
cheating, and they and their union wrote the rules to allow steroid use. If rules are forced upon you, that's
one thing. If you are in the power and write or okay the rules, you can't later say "It's not our fault. It's
the rules' fault."

Say as a card player I wrote rules that intentionally allowed me to have an unfair advantage and
soon own my opponents' money. When the advantage is revealed, you can bet they players won't
accept the "Don't blame me, as I was just following the rules." It's likely they will expect to
receive their money back, via their physical force if needed. They will consider the act of
writing the unfair rules to be a form of cheating.

As I said once before, steroid using baseball players made a contract with the Devil. In a contract with
the Devil, you get something from the Devil and the Devil later returns to get something from you. And if
at payment time you complain that the contract terms aren't fair, the Devil says "I know."

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I don't gamble, Jim. Personal reasons. But I think he will get in next year barring a revelation that sticks to him conclusively.

Barry, it isn't the Hall of Greats, it is the Hall of Fame. And I think Maz belongs based on his being the best ever at fielding his position. But what do I know; I'm just quoting Bill James.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I read an article today by HOF voter Gwen Knapp of the San Francisco Chronicle where she explains why she voted for ... (gasp!) ... Ken Caminiti!

Caminiti, you might recall, had one legitimate HOF season ... which attributed to, in a remarkable case of honesty, steroids. Knapp, by the way, didn't vote for McGuire ... for the simple reason "he wasn't honest."

This comes just a day after one of the voters announced he was turning in a blank ballot as a protest against the steroid era. Apparently, he didn't notice a well-deserving handful of players were on the ballot — like Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, etc. — who pre-dated the steroid era ...

I bring this up as tangible evidence that the HOF is truly broken. They've got people voting for HOFers who seem to have only a passing interest or knowledge of the game. No amount of ranting and raving about its quirks is going to fix anything. And by the way, I rant and rave about it as much as anyone ...

P.S. ... I am convinced that we on the Vintage Card Forum ... despite our vast political differences, could do a far better job electing HOFers than the clowns currently entrusted with the task ... Now there's a fun thread waiting to happen!

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

That's a great idea, don't be shy, go ahead and start the thread. No.1 on my list would be Lou Gehrig.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

No. 3 would be Babe Ruth, No. 4 would be Walter Johnson, No.5 would be Nolan Ryan. There you go the first tier HOF, now who would be in the second tier.

Peter

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Posted By: John H.

"I agree with you but the ballplayers need to be informed."

Peter C.,

How could anyone have advised McGwire on how to act at the 2005 hearings? That's where he screwed his HOF chances. He made a conscious decision to sit there and say nothing of substance. "I'm not here to talk about the past." Okay then, you baby, go home and kiss your plaque in Cooperstown goodbye. He should have faced the music like a man.

It was a pathetic performance and he's justifiably paying the price for it. He should have come clean. If Andro was all he was ever on, he should have said it. Andro isn't illegal and it wasn't banned in MLB at the time. If he was on the juice, he should have admitted it and apologized. As it turns out, it clearly looks like the container of Andro he so proudly displayed in his locker, for all to see, was just a cover to deflect suspicion that he might be on illegal steroids.

John

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Posted By: peter chao

John,

However, it was clear that he was honest. He did not want to talk about the past. So if somebody is evasive they should not be a member of the HOF.

Peter

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Posted By: Noel

Pete,

I am close with you as far as your top 4 but No. 5, are you kidding? Certainly a HOFer by todays standards but nowhere near a first tier. Think i would probably nominate at least 10 other pitchers ahead of him just off the cuff.

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Posted By: peter chao

Noel,

Your right No.5 is kinda of weak, Ryan never even won a Cy Young...who's in your top 5.

Peter

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Literally correct evasiveness may not by lying but it isn't honesty. Moms who have quizzed
kids about the missing cookies from the cookie jar will testify to this.

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Posted By: Noel

Pete,

Ryan was great but just incredibly inconsistent. This is subject to be revised but i am sure Mays would be in there.

1) Ruth
2) Cobb
3) Mays
4) Williams
5) Gehrig

Dont hold me to these but i think it would be pretty close to that order. I would also think Matty, Johnson, Dimaggio, Hornsby, Wagner, Speaker, Musial and some Negro League players would deserve some serious attention. I would love for the HOF to be held up to the standards of the inital class, it is so watered down now that i have lost some interest in many of the recent inductions.

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Posted By: peter chao

David,

I'm pretty sure that McGwire did not say what he wanted to say. It appears that an attorney advised him to be evasive.
Is somebody morally unfit to go into the HOF if he follows the advice of an attorney.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Noel,

I like your picks except for Cobb. I'm not sure if he would meet today's high moral standards (cough, cough). There were people who thought he was a rascist. There where people who saw him cheat by not touching 3rd base when he scored. Quite a list of moral weaknesses...

Peter

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Peter,
If Mark McGwire never used steroids or other illegal drugs, his lawyers would have allowed
him to testify that he never used steroids or other illegal drugs. If you think his answers
were a tactic by he and his lawyers to conceal that he never used steroids or other illegal
drugs, I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

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Posted By: fkw

Clemens juiced? Might want to look at Mr. Ryan too?? Add Jim Rice, Ricky Henderson, Mike Schmidt, Lee Smith, Eddie Murray, Reggie Jackson, Garry Carter, Carlton Fisk, Steve Garvey, and a few others from the era too! The whole steroid thing should be dropped. It wasnt against the rules until 2003. The only HOF caliper player to break the rule is Palmeiro, period! And andro (McGwires magic stuff) was not illegal too. It was banned in the Olympics, NCAA, and football only.....not baseball.

To give an example......... I know for a fact John Wetteland took steroids in High School, he was a teammate of mine for 5 years. It was everywhere back then. The only reason he stopped then was because he was told (by scouts and coaches) to get out of the gym and stop lift weights, because he was getting too bulky to be a pitcher. Bottom line it was common in the 1980s and any player in the late 70's-80's had their chance to take them or not. And why wouldnt you think about it as a pro player, if big power numbers = more $$.

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Posted By: Noel

I would certainly agree that Cobb was not a model for moral behavior in baseball but i dont think entering the Hall is based on that. Illegal and immoral behavior are completely different. If it was based on moral behavior you would have players like Dale Murphy and GlenAllen Hill leading up the first tier of HOFers.
Ruth's behavior was reprehensible in most any era but his numbers dont lie. Neither do Cobbs.
As far as the steroids debate i would certainly agree that it was not illegal until just a few years ago. For those who did steroids after it was illegal then i would be all for banning them for life. For those who have lied or tried to evade the question of some performance enhancing drugs before it was illegal, well lets let history be the judge. As far as McGwire is concerned i think the first ballot results are pretty clear.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A word about Congressional hearings...

I think the entire hearing about steroid use in baseball was crap, an abuse of power.

The Constitution is a strange document. It is not a power-giving or right-giving document. That is how it is taught, it is taught wrong. The Constitution doesn't give you rights. Read it. It doesn't say you have freedom of speech. What it says is that Congress shall not abridge your freedom of speech. The Constitution is a power limiting document. It limits the power of the federal government.

The federal government was formed by the states, that pre-existed the federal government. The states gave the federal government limited power. The 13 colonies wanted a united front in international affairs, they wanted the feds to regulate commerce between the colonies/states, the language says to "maintain" a navy, and to raise an army when necessary (gotta have a navy, only an army when necessary, the two are not on equal footing), declare war... and just about everything else was left back in the hands of the states. That isn't how it is taught in high school, but if you calmly read the Constitution it is obvious.

Congress and the federal government have no business meddling in baseball. I'm satisfied that baseball should ban steroids, but it is baseball's concern. Not congress'. If

Ted Z and I meet every weekend to pitch horseshoes, each game we both put up a HOF preWWI card, winner gets both... and we're reall serious about it, we get to working out, exercising, and taking steroids so we can out-pitch the other, that is no business of congress. If Ted and I sell you guys tickets to watch us pitch (we're that good) it is still no business of congress. Same for baseball.

If you don't think this is right, Congress knows it is. They didn't do anything. Because they can't. They can't just pass a law about that or against this, there has to be some Constitutional justification for their action. Without that, the courts will declare the law unconstitutional (and I think that should be with a capital U). Congress did nothing. They were powerless to do so. It was merely a feelgood show so the public would think they cared, and to get our peanut minds off of Americans fighting wars other side of the world.

I'd like to see Mr. McGuire show up next time, answer ALL of their questions, and then sue them for abuse of power, plus his costs for traveling to DC first time around, litigation costs, and punative damages. I don't think he'd win all of that, but I'd like the suit styled that way. And I know he wouldn't sue them. But that is what SHOULD happen.

Should steroids be in baseball? NO. Should Congress be in baseball?? NO!!!


Frank W., (Sometimes wrong, seldom in doubt.)

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Posted By: warshawlaw

we can't make Gehrig #1, Williams #2, etc. Gehrig has to be #4 and Williams has to be #9. Ruth can stay as #3.

Of course, I'm referencing their uniform #s not their values as players.