Joe Orlando

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Posted By: Dave

As far as I know...in recent months I haven't seen Joe respond in writing to anything on this board. I did find it interesting after postinga question over on PSA about the cert numbers and if anything in the numbers correlates to the grader's id that Joe quickly responded there...hmm.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Joe Orlando probably turns away from this board because it openly criticizes PSA and Joe. For the most part he can't have anyone delete posts in this forum. Not too many allies here. For him it's easier to act like an ostrich and bury his head in the sand than to address any real PSA issues. Look at the poll - there's about a 2:1 difference between SGC (272)and PSA (132) supporters in this forum.

Cmonnow Joe, lets answer a few questions... (the sound of his silence is deafening).

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Posted By: leon

But I have have been told Joe does read this board. Unfortunately this board is very unbiased (in our approach) and open. Not really a great mix for someone like him....BTW, if they wanted to advertise they would certainly be allowed too. There are many PSA supporters on this board (look at the poll) so it's not like he's in the doghouse like GAI....He wouldn't be able to have protection here though....

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Just out of curiosity, why would Orlando or any other President of a company go onto a public message board and make answer questions? It provides no benefit to them.


Happy Collecting!

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Dave Forman isn't exactly posting a lot either. I don't think it's fair to suggest the reason Joe doesn't post is because of the "open" and "unbiased" nature of the forum. He probably sees it as opening a Pandora's box, because someone would jump to conclusions every time he left something unanswered.

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Posted By: Dave

Well my question over there went from the cert numbers to exactly how many graders do see each card. I'm not trying to make a PSA bashing (although I know it will happen here). I just want answers to that. For all the screw ups and oversights with the grading it doesn't seem like at least two graders are looking at each card, at least not the lower valued cards. As president of any company, be it a grading service or a construction company, presidents in general have got to be the outspoken leader of the company and the public face of it. I do wish Joe would do a litte more of that....it certainly wouldn't hurt.
I didn't know Leon if Joe has even had any conversations with you off the board about any of the subjects or has just plain remained mute.

Edited to say this isn't taking a shot at the integrity of PSA, just wanting confirmation that at least two graders do see each card....if they dont always do it that way, hence there is an open gate towards mistakes and oversights. Just a humble and lowly collector here that does obtain PSA slabs, as well as gets cards graded throught them wanting the simpliest of questions answered.

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Posted By: Brian

If he were to advertise, would he have protection?

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Posted By: leon

I politely disagree. If done correctly it can be a great place to sound off...even for Presidents of large companies.....Anyone notice how Dave Forman did on the board recently? I have spoken with at least 8-10 principals of auction houses, and industry companies, and have always been helpful in educating them on how to be most successful on this board....but only when asked. You can see the ones that have, and haven't, asked. Don't get me wrong mistakes can still happen but I am fairly knowledgable on what works and what doesn't....and the chances are far greater to be successful with more knowledge. As Donald Trump would say..."he who has the most knowledge usually wins, in business". (or something like that )

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Posted By: barrysloate

In fairness to Joe, this board hasn't exactly been kind to him. Perhaps he has earned it, but if I were him I would be thinking that if I put up even one post here half the collecting community would be at my throat.

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Posted By: Dave

i have seen the mindset by many on here towards PSA and Joe. I'm not even saying he should come on here and post anything, because he will be eating alive. I do hope though he does at least respond to my question about the number of actual graders on his own forum....good lord he's playing on his home court. I know he can't answer every question thrown at him, but a few here and there always helps, and in light of recent scans posted on this board with some flaws and some mislabels by PSA, I think he would want to clarify the number of graders as well as the number of people after the graders are done that do go over the card and slab before it is sent back out to people. If there are just one grader and one "typist" or whatever you'd call that person that lables the cards than that should be corrected. If there are more than one person that looks at a card before it's sent out, than two people didn't notice the Mordecai Brown (chicago) labled a George Browne that I had.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Leon, I'm not too sure how unbiased a board or chatroom this possibly can be.
As I perceive it, this is a place where there were certain overall views and collecting emphasises that germinated early in its development, people who were and have remained involved for many years, and who have continued to shape much of the 'philosophy' of this vintage card haven. I would personally believe that many who have differed dramatically in their views with incumbent members have tried for a while, given up, and moved along. I doubt that ideas and viewpoints have been changed much by discussion as the general hard-headedness of this community is so plain in most threads. Not that that is unusual, or wrong, or even non representative of general communities, as indeed people congregate and maintain relationships for that specific reason....a sameness of opinion in enough areas to maintain cordiality and smooth over areas of difference.

So, Dave Forman went down quite well? Surprise surprise on a board where most members enjoy SGC services if they like their cards graded, and even where the occasional voice their choice of PSA - very few bother or belive in bashing SGC (and I clearly think their product is better too!).
Joe Orlando? Does anyone really believe he would get a fair hearing, especially if it can be seen in his product that their are so many shortfalls....how do you appease that?


regards
Daniel

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Posted By: leon

No one, including me, has protection.....if folks put their name by something they can say it, per the board rules. I think history has proven this...

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Posted By: leon

Your statement answered itself and my statement stands....Nice observations though....

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Posted By: Dave

Don't know if you missed my question above or if you cant/wont answer it...Has Joe ever talked to you "off" the board about any issues pertaining to anything here? And no, i'm not asking what any conversations would have been about, only if there have been any.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i just spoke to customer service (which i have always found to be very helpful)...

they informed me that 3 graders look at EVERY card.

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Posted By: leon

Sorry, I wasn't avoiding you I missed the question. I have never spoken or emailed or communicated in any way with Joe Orlando. I am extremely accessible. regards

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Posted By: Brian

Thanks Leon. You have been very consistent on this topic, just curious how advertising might affect the policy...

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Posted By: Scot Reader

What if the three graders disagree? Does the card get the highest grade given among the three? The lowest grade? The mean grade? The median grade? The grade given by the most experienced grader? Lots of possibilities. Scot

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Posted By: Dave

My other question would be...on mistakes made....cards bought back, etc. I would of coure hope that these cards can be trace back by PSA to the graders that made mistakes..just how many "mistakes" do they get? what kind of reprimanding goes on?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

<they informed me that 3 graders look at EVERY card.>
That is the funniest thing I've read in months. I would bet my entire collection that that is pure bunk. Post the customer service response on the CU board-- even the toadies will laugh.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

sorry- what are you saying?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Three graders do not look at every card, or probably any card.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

do you think it is only 1 or 2?

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Posted By: Mike

Being a publicly traded company, and all that may entail, may play a part in his reluctance to get involved in this forum. he has people to answer to. Though, it would be nice to has some the aforementioned questions answered.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Lets get a list of questions together for PSA (Joe or someone else designated by PSA) could answer the questions:

My question is on the return policy for cards. I've heard all kinds of different perceptions on the policy. Does PSA buy back cards for gross negligence in their grading? Provide the reasons that PSA allows for the buy back of a card they've graded?

I've always been under the impression that the only policy that they have on returns is that if you feel the card is overgraded that they will review the grade and lower it if necessary. Yeah, fat chance someones going to let them re-slab a card with a lower grade. Especially in this day and age of people buying holders and not the cards.

Any more questions? Lets get a list together and start a new thread. Only Joe (or an authorized PSA rep) can answer the questions. The only issue would then be whether or not public comment on the answers are allowed....

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I would guess that on most cards where the grading is relatively straightforward, only one grader is involved. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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Posted By: Dave

This is his response to my two questions.....about the cert number and about the number of graders per card....



In response to the last two questions....

1) The number is a randomly selected one...it has no special meaning.

2) As far as the number of graders goes...every card is inspected by at least two graders but - yes - that number can increase depending on the type of card. To illustrate, a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle will be reviewed by more graders than a 1985 Topps Mike Schmidt. This is just an example but our approach is best described as a "common sense" approach. The amount of graders generally ranges from 2-4 per card but, if we feel that it would be prudent to have even more graders review it then, from time to time, it could exceed that range.

Take care,

Joe Orlando
President



People may or may not agree with this, and yes it does look rather funny that Joe states that at least 2 people will look at every card, but when MVS called customer service they said 3 people. Either way...at least he responded.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

personally, I believe that only one grader views the VAST MAJORITY of cards, and even then for only a matter of a few to several seconds. If 2-4 graders (or more) "inspect" each card, then their myriad mistakes are even more unjustified. Anyway, here is the process as set forth on their website, which I believe to be pulp fiction:

"Grading....
The cards are now ready for grading. Each order is distributed to graders based on their particular skill and expertise. For example, a 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle would not be distributed to one of our modern card specialists. While the graders are generally trained to handle cards from virtually all eras, they are assigned cards based on their strengths.


In addition, the sheer number of graders assigned to each card can vary depending on the type of card submitted. In all cases, at minimum, two graders are assigned to every card.

Here's an example - if you were to submit a 1965 Topps Willie Mays - this is how the grading process would work:

Each grader receives the order and they will enter the order number into the computer. Once that is done, the contents of that order will appear on the PSA grading screen. Grader #1 will then enter his grade for the card in question (and for each card within the order until the order is completed if there is more than one card) and close the order on his screen. Once that is done and after redistribution of the order, Grader #2 will do the same - not knowing the opinion of the first grader on any of the cards within that order.

If their grades match in the computer, the card would then eventually reach a 3rd grader for verification of the grade. If the opinion of the first two graders does not match, that card will be assigned to a 3rd grader whose opinion is required to break the tie so to speak. As with the first example, the card would still be assigned to another grader for verification (a 4th grader in the process) to make sure the grade is accurate and consistent with our standards.
"

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Posted By: quan

don't know about now (since i don't send stuff in for grading anymore), but a couple years back i believed they had 2-3 graders doing vintage from the different cert. numbers as well as the grading quality associated with each. the onsite show cert. would also be different. i don't believe they'd have 3 diff graders looking over your $10 bulk subm. t206 common.

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Posted By: Dave

I made mention over there to Joe about the board here and questions some from here may have. IF I get a response that he or someone else high up with PSA would be willing to take a few questions(won't hold my breath) then I guess we could be a few together. Again, won't hold my breath...as I don't know that I'd respond in that fashion either.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Should someone agree to come on the board, let's keep the questions pointed but respectful. You might actually get some good answers if we keep things at an even keel. Bashing isn't the best way to go. And I am holding my breath.

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Posted By: Dave

I will say this I'm quite surprised at how he has responded to the couple questions on his own forum. I did ask him if he is interested in hearing questions from our bunch that he could p.m. me over there or find my email through this board. Like I said it may be for nothing....but he does not seem totally turning a blind eye as he is at least responding to some things over there. I to would ask that maybe if he would agree to hear questions from here...that it not even be started in a thread...that we would come up with a number of questions..(and limit them), and if he would deal with the questions through email with me fine, or better yet if we could have Leon do a direct email questionaire with Joe, maybe even better. That way it would keep from getting out of hand....we'd have a few questions sent to him or whoever else high up would answer....they could email the responses back to us...and then we could post that on the board....would keep the thing from going sour fast I think.
Sorry Leon...guess I shouldn't be volunteering you for yet another job huh?

Edited to say...I'm really not interested in throwing the whole altered cards subject up at Joe if he would indeed like to field a few questions....but that would be up to everybody..I already know Jim's vote..

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Posted By: leon

No worries...maybe I can get Joe to advertise . I will help any way I can and have nothing against Joe or PSA...except I think that SGC does a better job on the cards we collect. That's only my opinion, just business, and I am sure Joe would understand that....best regards

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Posted By: Dave

And if anybody has a better way to maybe approach Joe with this...i'm certainly all ears. I just think starting a thread with a question or two and having him try to answer that followed by thirty people jumping in with more questions or smart ass remarks doesn't get us anywhere. That is my reason for suggesting we would get a list of questions together, maybe narrow them down and then have him respond email to email, then post the responses. Then, the vultures could feast I guess.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

dave, i like your posts and you seem pretty cool, but with all due respect, you are talking about "Joe" as if he is the prime minister of england, and needs to be handled and treated like a senator...he is president of a company...simply call him.

over the years, if i have had questions for him, i would just pick up the phone, ask for joe orlando, and he would get on the phone, i would ask him a few questions, he would answer, i would thank him, then hang up...he has always been very responsive (i have found)...or, just shoot him a direct email...

no need for a whole big elaborate plan to contact him.

this is public information:
800-325-1121
JOrlando@collectors.com

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Posted By: leon

I just left a v-mail for Joe...We'll see if he calls back....

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Joe would have to be crazy to post here. It might be our first 500 post thread, though.

I can already hear half the board stretching their fingers to prepare for the opportunity to slam him for something.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Dave

Well I can assure you I definately don't think of Joe as any high figure or royalty. I just based this on the recent dabacle with the other threads involving the auction houses and how that all went. I think Joe probably had some knowledge of what was going on here, and that SGC responded....and so fourth. So....I wanted to try a formal attempt at getting some questions answered by more than just myself on this board if possible. By no means do I consider him anything more than head of PSA.....

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Posted By: David Vargha

Faster than you can say, "two-faced empty suit", Joe Orlando silenced the critics with his non-response. Hey, Orlando promised the posters on the CU boards that he would explain the WIWAG affair after it had worked its way through the courts. We're still waiting for that post. [Insert scene from Animal House of John Belushi yelling "Bullsh*t" and then coughing.] We are still waiting for his explanation of the two Rose rookie cards with the same cert number. He never explained the Dan McKee fiasco (or offered up an apology for his pathetic performance). I asked him on CU to answer the allegation that PSA once left an entire pallet of holders unguarded overnight in the PSA parking lot prior to the WIWAG incident [You can insert the classic western movie scene of a deserted town with a tumbleweed whistling through it.]

The fact is, Joe Orlando doesn't really give a rat's ass what you or I think. He condescendingly referred to the posters on the CU Forum as representing less than 1% of the PSA customer base (translation: screw you and your piddly submissions). What's worse is that even if he did care, which he apparently doesn't, he isn't empowered to do a darn thing about it anyway. C'mon, say it ain't so, Joe!

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, now Joe certainly has a reason to come on board and answer some questions. He just may not leave the board alive. I still hope if he does, we comport ourselves with an air of civility (but I doubt it).

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I was never very good at reading tea leaves-why not just tell us how you really feel.
I mean, it's not like they slabbed a couple of your cards with boogers in them or something.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Whatever you want to think about Joe Orlando, he is not an idiot. Considering the venom that has already been shown to him out here, he is in a no-win situation should he post. Can any honest person out here blame him for not posting?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

but maybe he can answer some specific questions, as suggested. His track record does not make that seem likely, however.

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Posted By: Dylan

PSA SHOULD have 3 graders and each should individualy grade a card, then throw out the high and low grade if there is one.

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Posted By: FYS

"Faster than you can say, "two-faced empty suit", Joe Orlando silenced the critics with his non-response. Hey, Orlando promised the posters on the CU boards that he would explain the WIWAG affair after it had worked its way through the courts. We're still waiting for that post. [Insert scene from Animal House of John Belushi yelling "Bullsh*t" and then coughing.] We are still waiting for his explanation of the two Rose rookie cards with the same cert number. He never explained the Dan McKee fiasco (or offered up an apology for his pathetic performance). I asked him on CU to answer the allegation that PSA once left an entire pallet of holders unguarded overnight in the PSA parking lot prior to the WIWAG incident [You can insert the classic western movie scene of a deserted town with a tumbleweed whistling through it.]

The fact is, Joe Orlando doesn't really give a rat's ass what you or I think. He condescendingly referred to the posters on the CU Forum as representing less than 1% of the PSA customer base (translation: screw you and your piddly submissions). What's worse is that even if he did care, which he apparently doesn't, he isn't empowered to do a darn thing about it anyway. C'mon, say it ain't so, Joe!\"

Vargha,

You still use PSA for Post-War correct? If so, it is informed collectors like yourself that allow Joe's behavior to flourish.

Mike Uhl

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Posted By: David Vargha

Using PSA for post war cards is simply protecting resale value. I'm no fool. But we were talking about Joe Orlando, no? PSA and Orlando are not one and the same issue even though there are certainly places where the two overlap. My opinion is that PSA could replace him by getting a dog and taping "PSA President" on its ass and there would be no discernable difference in the end-product. As I said, "empty suit". Do they make suits for dogs?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I think, juuuuuust maybe, that last post may well do us in.......who wouldn't want to talk to people with such language skills?

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Posted By: Dave

Well once again....things have to turn into a bashing. And for what reason this time? Most every business's presidents obviously are upfront and are willing to answer questions or get involved in dilemas and such. But, if I'm the president of the construction company I work for....and one of the suppliers I use, or subcontractors I use starting calling me a jackass or whatever the case may be, do you think any president of any outfit at that point has any reason in the world to then discuss any agenda with that other group? No. And what is funny is most of the people that do have to get into this typical name calling kind of a deal don't know Joe Orlando from Dick Van Dyke. For the few of us that do prefer PSA, answers to honest questions about the grading procedures, company buybacks, and other relative information will be again left in the dark because of some members of this board. And David.....if you really think that a mutt would easily suffice for Joe Orlando in a suit, why in the hell would you be using the product at all if the head of that firm is that incompetent? To make another 5-10% off sales?

I'm not some big Joe Orlando supporter. I do support and prefer PSA....but bashing the guy solves nothing here other than making sure we as a group won't get any questions of actual relevance answered.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Dave -- I will address your first concern as well as answer your question. First of all, Joe Orlando has been asked several times to come clean on the issues mentioned in my first post on this thread. He has never publicly answered them, including WIWAG issues that he said in writing that he would address on the CU boards. It's not like he was just asked these two days ago and I am unfairly criticizing him for not having answered them yet. My conclusion -- he is a liar and not someone to be trusted. Now maybe I'm wrong, but until he answers some of the hard questions that have been posed to him about PSA, then he is complicitly agreeing with my conclusion (and the same one that others have arrived at) by his deafening silence.

Secondly, in case I failed to make it clear, I feel that Joe Orlando, as president of PSA, offers as much to their product as a canine counterpart would. He doesn't grade cards and his customer service is limited to basically PR functions. So in no way am I saying that as goes Joe Orlando, so goes PSA. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I said that his current impact is similar to that of a dog holding his position. The major difference that I see is that his salary is greater.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Dave

and my question to you is/was....if your that unhappy with the leadership at PSA....why spend money there at all? for a 5-10% hike in sales? Seems to me if you and anybody else is that unhappy with him...then you'd not put a single dime towards submissions with PSA...stop spending the money there, and perhaps they will put a dog in his position next...