Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian,

We would appreciate it if you could address the issues discussed in a similar manner as Doug Allen from Mastronet and Clean Sweep Auctions.

Thank you.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian has informed me that he will not respond to these questions in an open forum.

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Posted By: JK

I will be curious to see if he loses any business as a result. My guess is he will.

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Posted By: MikeU

Any feel on the reasoning for the unwillingness to reply?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

No good will come of it, doesn't have the time and people are too negative on here.

I urged him to change his mind but don't hold out much hope.

He offered to talk to me privately in Reading which I will not be at.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

People are too negative? What a laugher. Translated that means "people are not lapping up the BS the way they used to." What could he possibly fear other than the truth? Lame. Brian, not that you care, but the 20K I spent in your last auction is the last you'll see from me.

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Posted By: MikeU

"people are too negative on here"

The only negatives I have seen are in regards to:

1. Removing surface wrinkles that only show up on one side of the card.
2. Selling your own inventory without identification.

It is probably pretty safe to assume he participates in those two activities. Does he perform or do other things that would make him fear some real negative feedback? The feedback on the above two items was not overwhelmingly negative, in fact, the people have been commended for speaking out.

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Posted By: Noel

Wow, what a statement. This guy is content to sit idly by while people who have spent 5 digit numbers in his previous auctions actively state they will no longer participate. Not real big on auctions myself and the "buyers premium" but this is a slam dunk to me on who to avoid. What an interesting marketing ploy. Some say it best when they say nothing at all. Maybe customer service isnt in his top 5 most important goals. Thanks Jim for undertaking this, i will certainly continue to follow with great interest.

Noel Wrye

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Posted By: Steve

deleted until I speak with Steve...I have saved this whole response in a word document...thanks (leon)....STeve- you need to email me and I will shoot you back the response. Why didn't you put your email address? Also, your IP address is different from your last login? I am being careful here on purpose (leon)

ALSO- this IP has been blocked for the moment as a precaution. This post can be posted again after I speak with Steve....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Somehow I think that last post will interest Brian more than my last one.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Auction houses should remember that with the plethora of auctions every month and with the large volume of items offered, bidders have more discretion in choosing which company to give their business to.

It can't be good for business to refuse to answer a few simple questions.

Frank

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Posted By: Billy Stair

I am definately not a "big buyer" as many here are, but I still appreciate the effort of Jim to get some answers and I know if I was dropping $20Gs on this guys auctions I would definately take my business elsewhere until questions are answered.

I have always been of the opinion if one was above board and honest about a subject they could answer freely ( this goes back to my years in Law Enforcement) and those that in fact took the 5th usually had a reason why they didn't want to talk.

Good info Jim.

Bill

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Posted By: Brian Drent

I wanted to take a minute to clear some things up, I feel that Jim may have misrepresented our communication. Below is my email to him in response to his inquiry. As you can see from the email I am extremely busy with finishing our catalog for our January auction, as well as getting ready for the Reading show. I do plan on answering Jim's questions next week when I will be able to devote more adequate time to such a sensitive and important subject. We greatly appreciate and hold in high regard our customers as well as consignors and would never do anything to jeapordize that.


Jim,



I wanted to send you a quick email to let you know that I did receive your emails. I don’t believe I will respond in an open forum, because I don’t believe any good for the hobby will come of it, and that from what I have seen on the board only negative stances are taken. I am also in the final stages of finishing my next auction catalog and really don’t have adequate time to spend with this issue. I will be at the Reading show and if you are there I would enjoy speaking with you at that time, or you can call me on my cell at 303-748-1371 to discuss this issue.



Respectfully,



Brian Drent

President

Mile High Card Company

brian@milehighcardco.com

(303) 840-2784

www.milehighcardco.com

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Posted By: JK

I think my question is being answered. Edited to add that I dont believe Jim misrepresented anything. I dont see where in the email above it states that a response will follow next week.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Brian, with all respect, Jim did not misrepresent you at all. When you stated that 'no good to the hobby will come from' these inquiries, what on earth were you referring to? Unless the hobby is making more cash for auction houses, I'm at a loss to understand why you would claim that endeavoring to find out if auction houses alter cards is a useless quest. With the time you spent in responding, couldn't you just take 5 mins to respond to the issue at hand?

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Posted By: Colt McClelland

Jim absolultely did misrepresent the facts in his message tonight on this thread. Brian's email was professional, polite, and made it clear that he is more than willing to discuss these issues and answer questions. Jim, on the other hand, made it seem as if Brian made a curt dismissal of the request without any interest in discussing this matter. In addition, Jim misrepresented that he "urged him to change his mind" which is clearly not the case.

If Brian does not want to do it on this forum, that's his choice. If that ultimately is his choice, I frankly don't blame him as this board has a bad reputation for people being treated unfairly and with malice without justification.

I've been a collector for almost 30 years, and Brian ranks as one of the best dealers I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. Jumping to false conclusions and throwing out uninformed accusations is at the very least morally and ethically repugnant, and I would hope that a collecting community as erudite as this one would practice some restraint and perform serious due diligence before taking things to that level.

Why don't you guys just pick up the phone and call Brian if you want an answer to some questions.

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Posted By: leon

I know Brian and have dealt with him and have never had a problem. I don't think we should accuse someone or insinuate something for not wanting to post on this board. For the record Steve Verkman's response was so over the top I had to copy it into a word doc until I speak with him. Steve posted from a different IP addres (not too unusual) last time but also posts his email in his threads...this one above didn't have a return email and was extremely inflammatory. I am being careful, that's all....thanks again

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Posted By: JK

Jim's statement: "Brian has informed me that he will not respond to these questions in an open forum."

Brian's email: "I don’t believe I will respond in an open forum"

Jim: "No good will come of it, doesn't have the time and people are too negative on here."

Brian: "I don’t believe any good for the hobby will come of it and that from what I have seen on the board only negative stances are taken."

Brian: "I am also in the final stages of finishing my next auction catalog and really don’t have adequate time to spend with this issue."

Jim: "He offered to talk to me privately in Reading which I will not be at."

Brian: "I will be at the Reading show and if you are there I would enjoy speaking with you at that time, or you can call me on my cell at 303-748-1371 to discuss this issue."


I see no misrepresentation whatsoever - the only thing left out was that Brian also left a phone number. I also dont see where Jim's statements imply that Brian was anything less than professional. Finally, as to Jim's statement about urging Brian to change his mind, well, absent the follow up emails, we are in no position to say whether Jim did so or not, but I see no reason to doubt him. On the other hand, explain to me where Brian has informed Jim that he "plan[s] on answering Jim's questions next week when I will be able to devote more adequate time to such a sensitive and important subject."

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Wow.......

See it as you may. But i don't see how Jim misrepresented anything.

That email speaks volumes to me about how at least one auction house
Views us as buyers.

Pretty much ( I have know time for the B.S. on the board but continue spending your money. )

Leon,

I would really like to see the deleted post.

I for one think this is very important as it will decide where i will spend my hard earned money in the future.

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Posted By: BcD

How long have you been around collecting vintage cards?

I ask because I suspect you do not know the history of many card dealers and what they have and have not done "personally" with cards they have sold! Why have you not asked them if they have tampered with cards as well as how they feel about some of the methods used and whether they go beyond the "grey" area or not! As long as you are asking them how they feel,ask them what they have done to cards they have owned and sold. Some of us who have been around collecting true vintage cards for over 30 years will be entertained!

BcD

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Posted By: JimCrandell

First, I don't think I misrepresented Brian's response. Maybe I wasn't warm and fuzzy but I thought I captured the essence of what he said.

I like Brian--I have known him a long time and have bought cards from him. I believe he is one of the hobby good guys.

Still, I think dealers underestimate the level of anxiety among collectors.

From everything I am hearing, it doesn't seem like there is anything to be done about light crease removal other than to get dealers word they will not do it. The key and Leon pointed this out is the microtrimming/reshaping that is going on and is it getting by the graders.

BcD,

Why don't I ask them if they have tampered with vintage cards? They don't respond now--imagine if I asked them that.

Jim

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Posted By: David Vargha

I too, have had nothing but positive transactions with Brian. However, I had at least three or four collectors question me privately at the time about purchases of PSA graded cards I had made from him several years ago. So the insinuations about Brian (whether true or not) have been around for some time as to him "improving" cards. As such, I would be interested to read his response to Jim's questions as well.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: steve f

You don't have time, then you *SHOULD make time.

For the past week, I have been working my typical 60hrs and in between shifts traveling 200 mi to work the Danvers fire site for an additional 36 hrs.

In between the confusion I've found time to; Pen several emails, bid and win a few auctions (snipe), watch the Pats game, drink a little and even had relations with my bride. Oh, I've also gotten a couple of good night's sleep.

I'm far from being a professional binessman, but a lack of a timely response couldn't be good for sales. For Cripe's sake, everyone in the freakin Country is busy. Steve F

*editted to reduce hostile/frustrated tone

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

I can sympathize.

I got home from a business dinner at 9:30pm last night--answered briefly a ton of e-mails--mostly from people on this board--and after a 17 and a half hour day yesterday I am up at 4am today to fight the stock market wars another day.

Still I will try to contact Bill Goodwin and JP Cohen by phone and urge them to respond here.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've been off the board for a couple of days but I thought at this time I would add a new "wrinkle" (pun intended) to this discussion. And I only posted on the Mile High thread because it was at the top of the board. While everyone is rightly concerned with the issue of altered cards, I'm not sure you are all aiming at the right source. If I had to guess, the amount of work done to improve cards by dealers is minimal. It could be done now and then, but at most it might involve ironing a wrinkle, and if done at all quite infrequently. I think the real source of all these problems lies with those trained in paper restoration, and many of them work below the radar and may be unknown to the hobby. The skill with which a good paper conservator can restore a worn card to look mint is extraordinary, and I am sure many of these frankenstein monsters are so good that they pass detection and are put in holders. I don't know how many people are doing this illicitly, but I think that is the source of all the repaired and restored cards that enter the hobby. And if I were guessing, I would say it may be close to epidemic. The same goes for autograph forgers, who neither collect nor sell publicly, but work clandestinely looking for old paper and old baseballs to do their work. With baseball cards, by the time these are put into holders, the conservator is long separated from them. He has made his money, he probably knows some sleazy dealer who will help him fence his work, and when these cards make it into the hobby, they are assimilated with all the other circulating material. Sorry, I can't name names but I think it is the paper conservator who is much more dangerous than the dealer who may or may not be pressing out a crease. It is well and good to ask all these auction houses what their ethical practices are, but they are not the primary source of the problem.

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Posted By: leon for SteveVerkman

**Steve had posted this from a different computer (IP address) and didn't have an email address on his post so I was very cautious and saved and deleted it. I have not changed one word of this post and have absolutely no knowlege personally of the situation. I was ONLY being careful and I hope everyone can appreciate that. (leon) Steve's response verbatim:

"I have to say I was very curious to see if Drent would come on the board. I can tell you that several years ago he bought a 1952 Topps #80 Wehmeier card from me in Near Mint condition for around $80. He sent the card into PSA and amazingly it came back an 8 as it was no better than a 7 when I sold the card to him (I was grading 1952 Topps cards that had shots at 8s at that time). I only know this because Drent went around bragging to people that this card sold for $12,000 or some crazy price because apparently the card is rare as an 8 and that I am (was) a fool. What he did not tell people is he trimmed, pressed or otherwise altered the card and then got it graded. Some could say I have sour grapes, but I am not a trimmer, and people can interpret this FIRST HAND information however they wish.

Also, at the recent Boston show, Drent paid a huge price for a collection of mostly mid-grade Mantle cards. All of the key dealers at the show looked carefully at this collection and everyone was in the $13K - 14K range and at that point there was not even much money to make. Drent paid $18K for this, which shocked everyone, as the 52 Topps was a 2 at best and the 51 Bowman was only VG and Brent does not sell low and middle grade Mantle regular issue Topps and Bowman cards. Speculation, including my own, centered around a nearly perfectly centered and sharp 57 Topps Mantle with a mild rough cut. It will be interesting to see if this card ends up in an 8 or 9 holder sans rough cut.

I just want the board members to understand that I am not one to get into gossiping and trash talking about my competitors. Please understand that these are both DIRECT EXPERIENCES I have had that make me very skeptical at a minimum as to any conclusion OTHER than that he trims and/or alters his cards, and at that far more than pressing out any surface wrinkles.

Steve"

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Posted By: Dave

Is it just me or is all this starting to border on dangerous territory....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I think you are a little off base here. Leon talked about an earlier conversation with Dave Forman where he said that the big issue was the microtrimming going on which is very difficult to detect.

I think(hope) Dave will come on and give his views soon.

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Jim, I am not sure you and Barry are saying different things, I assume some expertise is involved in microtrimming, regraining, etc. etc. and that the "conservators" of whom Barry speaks might well be doing this.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

I had not heard on this regraining until recently--can you explain?

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Jim it's completely hearsay on my part but I have heard that trimming can sometimes be detected because it affects the look and feel of the borders so post-trimming other stuff is or can be done to make the borders look and feel more natural. I very well could be off base here though.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- if you feel I am off base, when Dave Forman comes on the board please direct him to my post and ask him for his comments. Regards, Barry

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Not off base--just offering a further distinction I guess.

But I really hope Dave will come on and tell us how bdifficult it is to detect all of this stuff.

Jim

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

to your point, I would somewhat agree. There are however, auction houses, who clearly use (and have admitted such even on this board) paper conservators on photos and advertising pieces. With that type of ongoing activity, it is not difficult to make the stretch that those same auctioneers might possibly be tempted to use those same conservators to polish up that 52 Mantle from a 6 to an 8 or other high profile marginally graded cards.

Just the mere association between the two on one type of transaction certainly would give one pause to consider everything else they handle. In addition, if that 'conservation' is not disclosed and it materially changes the face of the item, that certainly calls into question their ethics even further...

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Posted By: MikeU

"I have to say I was very curious to see if Drent would come on the board. I can tell you that several years ago he bought a 1952 Topps #80 Wehmeier card from me in Near Mint condition for around $80. He sent the card into PSA and amazingly it came back an 8 as it was no better than a 7 when I sold the card to him (I was grading 1952 Topps cards that had shots at 8s at that time). I only know this because Drent went around bragging to people that this card sold for $12,000 or some crazy price because apparently the card is rare as an 8 and that I am (was) a fool. What he did not tell people is he trimmed, pressed or otherwise altered the card and then got it graded. Some could say I have sour grapes, but I am not a trimmer, and people can interpret this FIRST HAND information however they wish."

No wonder Brian is so busy "preparing" for the upcoming auction.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

"No wonder Brian is so busy "preparing" for the upcoming auction."

That is a completely irresponsible conclusion.

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Posted By: MikeU

"That is a completely irresponsible conclusion."

So Steve's comments do not concern you whatsoever?

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I did not say that, but I am not prepared on the basis of one story by someone whose motives are unclear (and who may himself not have a stellar reputation) to jump to any conclusions about Brian Drent.

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Posted By: MikeU

"I am not prepared on the basis of one story"

Actually, one source with two stories. One criminal story and one disturbing story.

So Steve V. is not a significantly sufficient source of first hand information for you to base a decision?

How many first hand accounts of fraudulent activitiy is required before you are comfortable?

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Posted By: leon

You might want to be careful here. I have spoken to all concerned parties in the last hour. There are always 2 sides to a story. I condsider both Steve and Brian friends....take care

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

How do I know Steve is being truthful? How do I know what his motives are? And even if he is being truthful, how do I know his assessment that the card was NM was accurate? And most importantly, how does HE know Brian did anything to it? His sole basis appears to be because PSA graded it NM/MT. The difference between two opinions is enough to convict Brian? So PSA couldn't have had a different opinion of the card? Did Steve identify in any way what was different about the card? No, he said Brian "trimmed, pressed, or altered it" in some way, showing he has no knowledge whatsoever and is just making an inference based on different opinions on the grade. I could go on but you get the point.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

If I remember correctly, Marshall Fogel was the buyer of that card and I remember being at a show after he bought it and someone saying that Marshall thought it was a weak 8 but that was the final card he needed to complete the set in psa 8 or better.

If Marshall did not pay $12K, perhaps Charlie or Don would have.

I would also say we should wait and give Brian a chance to tell his side of the story.

Jim

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Posted By: JK

While I think Brian's decision not to answer the questions posed to him on board will hurt his business, I think its way to early to be convicting him of altering cards. As Peter noted, two people may have completely different opinions as to the condition of a card - who are we to say who was right without seeing the card in question. Further, even assuming it was only a NM card, without before and after pictures, how can you prove that something was done to the card as opposed to psa simply overgrading it (which seems to occur quite frequently).

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

People's reputations are at stake here. It is absolutely wrong to throw them under the bus without critically examining the supposed evidence against them, AND waiting to hear their side of the story if they wish to give it. I have no personal knowledge of Verkman's story but there is an obvious alternative explanation which does not involve any improper activity.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Unfortunatly i think peoples reps are already being affected. True or not right or wrong these are the people who rely on our $'s.

I think this should be hashed out here for all to see. Than we can each make our own decision on where to spend.

Look, If someone makes a statement regarding unethicle practice's by a dealer/auctioneer and they choose not to defend themselve's. It WILL affect whether i bid or buy from them.

Of course each must make that decision on there own though, And that is there right which i respect.

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Posted By: shane

This is my first post over here on the message 54 boards but have viewed these boards for over a year. I know many of you here personally and respect your points of view with regards to purchasing "quality" material from dealers and the importance of doing that. Jim, as I have said before, your collection is one of the best. I appreciate your desire to inform others about this issue, however I find your policing of this issue a little out of line. Please know you should want to know who is doing alterations on cards so you can protect your investment. I don't believe it is your responsibility to send out a survey to every dealer in the U.S. and expect them to participate in a forum where they have no chance to provide the "right" answer. As you can see Doug Allen gave us his points to your questions and others kept grilling him on these issues. For the most part, every dealer does some sort of ironing to a crease and lays down a corner. This has been done before the grading fad began. The problem in this hobby is when resoration of paper, removal of glue and trimming of cards are being done and they are being passed by authentication companies. This problem would go away if PSA, GAI and SGC could detect this. The dealers who participate in this type of practice would go out of business.
The survey that you have sent out to all these dealers is not right in my opinion. I believe the survey should be sent to PSA and GAI letting customers like you and I know who is sending in this garbage to be graded. PSA has already taken a pretty big stance on having these dealers marked for future submissions. This may not resolve the issue completely, but it will curtail it some.

Shane

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Posted By: barrysloate

Shane- I am a dealer and the last time I ironed a crease out of a card was about 20 years ago. I tried it a few times, never got it quite right, and never tried it again. Please don't say all dealers iron out creases; we can agree that a percentage of dealers do it.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

Well said Shane. I'm probably in the minority here, but I agree with you 100%.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I spoke briefly to Brian just now. He called me, I did not call him, and he authorized me to post this message concerning the allegation by Steve Verkman. Brian wishes to make two points. One, the card in question was a 52 Del Crandall (also a very low pop common at least at the time), not a Wehmeier. More importantly, Brian categorically denies that he altered the card in any way prior to its being submitted to PSA.

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Posted By: MikeU

"PSA has already taken a pretty big stance on having these dealers marked for future submissions. This may not resolve the issue completely, but it will curtail it some."

Did I miss a statement by PSA?