Question for grading services PSA and SGC

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Posted By: JimNewmanPSAguy

I have watched this board closely over the last couple of years, digesting opinion after opinion. I have put together a decent sized collection that I have at least 250k invested in....I am honestly getting quite irritated and I want some answers.....I have seen many post recently about the altering of cards? ....If your graders have altered thousands of cards then clearly you would know what to look for...almost like you are constantly educating yourself and keeping up with technology....SO WHO DOES PSA OR SGC HAVE ON STAFF THAT ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO COMBAT THIS??? Maybe Im freaking out here a little bit, but what started out as a tremendous passion for me is getting to be a real bummer.....Here is an idea...why dont the two big grading services do a little research and find out who the best card doctors are in the world and put them on staff...am I out of my mind???.....thoughts??????

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

And what makes you think grading cards for PSA and SGC would be more lucrative than doctoring cards? EDITED TO ADD I didn't mean to be that sarcastic, but if you think about it it doesn't really seem to be a practical idea. These folks aren't going to quit their day jobs to grade or consult for PSA.

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Posted By: MikeU

I would prefer the card doctors to be killed by being hung from a tree with a fork up their ass, as opposed to being put on staff and make money at PSA or SGC.

I apologize in advance for the Michael Richards humour that I am sure that someone will feel is so distastefull and inapproprate that they will never read another one of my posts and will ask Leon for my banishment.

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Posted By: JimNewmanPSAguy

I appreciate your responses but the point of my intial post has been missed by both of you....to be clear...what are PSA and SGC doing to be proactive regarding this matter? OR are they arrogant enough to think they already know everything about paper restoration?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

MikeU,

I'm with you.

Jim,

Excellent questions. I would suggest Leon trying to contact Joe and Dave and Mike Baker and having a connversation. I honestly think the grading companies are the good guys here but there is undoubtedly more each could do to combat this issue.

Jim

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Posted By: MikeU

"SO WHO DOES PSA OR SGC HAVE ON STAFF THAT ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO COMBAT THIS???"

SGC's top graders are Scott Hileman and Bob Luce. Prior to that it was Derek Grady and Lee Isokwitz, both of which are now at Mastro. Chris Ivy of Heritage was also a grader at SGC at one time.

PSA's graders have been pretty nameless since the departure of Danny Fisher and Mike Baker to GAI a few years ago. Andy Madec was also a PSA grader at one time. Finally, Dave Forman was a grader at PSA for a very short period of time.

Doug Allen send an e-mail to Joe Orlando and Dave Forman. I suspect in there responses you will get some insight directly from them on your question. I am sure Doug will post their responses. I hope he waits until he gets both responses. I do not want either party to be able to cater their response based on viewing the others first.

Ultimately, the single most important aspect to a grading company is whether or not they guarantee their product. More bluntly, will they buy back their mistakes. There is a company that takes great pride in their consistenty and ability to find alterations. This same company will undoubtably buy back their mistakes. If you have that companies slabs, I would not worry too much, as you know you will be reimbursed if there are any problems.

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Posted By: steve k

PSA and SGC are going to start paying out many millions of dollars in buy-back fees for creases/wrinkles that came back because of card doctoring? Me thinks there will be a disclaimer about this in their policies coming real soon.

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Posted By: MikeU

"PSA and SGC are going to start paying out many millions of dollars in buy-back fees for creases/wrinkles that came back because of card doctoring? Me thinks there will be a disclaimer about this in their policies coming real soon."

I will bet you a large amount of money that the SGC guarantee will continue to cover wrinkles that resurface. Meaning, any card graded over an SGC 80 should never have a surface wrinkle. If it does, SGC will always buy it back, period.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

250K in cards! You're living my fantasy big guy!

daniel

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Posted By: MattB

Mike, do you have any idea what SGC's position is on cards that have been damaged due to their holders? I have 3 high grade cards each 5-figured in value that have received nicks along their borders (luckily only to the backs of the cards) due to the absurdly sharp corners on the custom cut black inserts. One of the cards, which is loose in the holder has a nick on the left and right borders where it has hit the corners of the insert. Another card appears to have been encased with an insert that is too tight causing a corner to press into the edge of the card. As an example of what I am talking about, look at Mastro lot# 2009 on the back of the card on the right border where the black insert corner is clearly cutting into the edge of the card. I will say that SGC is my grading company of choice as I think they are the most accurate graders and I will continue to purchase cards graded by them, but I can't believe I am the only one out there that has cards that have been damaged in this manner. A case like BGS uses is the only way to ensure cards will not get damaged post grading. Sorry if this is too off-topic, but you have repeatedly trumpeted SGCs guaranty so I thought you might know the answer to my question.

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Posted By: MikeU

"Mike, do you have any idea what SGC's position is on cards that have been damaged due to their holders? I have 3 high grade cards each 5-figured in value that have received nicks along their borders (luckily only to the backs of the cards) due to the absurdly sharp corners on the custom cut black inserts. One of the cards, which is loose in the holder has a nick on the left and right borders where it has hit the corners of the insert. Another card appears to have been encased with an insert that is too tight causing a corner to press into the edge of the card."

I think their guarantee would abosolutely cover these scenario's. Give them a call. If the results are negative, I would be very dissapointed and would suggest you post them on this board. Likewise, if they are positive.

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Posted By: steve k

<<< Re: Question for grading services PSA and SGC November 25 2006, 10:50 PM

"PSA and SGC are going to start paying out many millions of dollars in buy-back fees for creases/wrinkles that came back because of card doctoring? Me thinks there will be a disclaimer about this in their policies coming real soon."

I will bet you a large amount of money that the SGC guarantee will continue to cover wrinkles that resurface. Meaning, any card graded over an SGC 80 should never have a surface wrinkle. If it does, SGC will always buy it back, period. >>>

Man, you've got a lot to learn about how corporations operate. Sure they'll stick to the guarantee, as long as it doesn't get out of hand - if it jeopardizes the life of their business by costing them too much money, then they'll change the guarantee. It's as simple as that.

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Posted By: leon

Please post your full name for us or email me privately why you can't...nothing personal....thanks much...

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Posted By: DJ

The "new" Jim makes a good and valid point. When the card goes into the backroom, how do we know who is viewing and grading the piece? Bunch of "surfers"? What if you get an overworked young gent and he's basically phoning in the last hour?

Not to be a pain here, but doesn't:

JimNewmanPSAguy

kind of sound like:

JimCrandell ?

The "new Jim" has never posted before, despite years of lurking and jumped in on this subject, which JimC has been obsessing about the last few days.
JimC answers JimN's own post and agrees with him a few minutes after. Neither Jim add a space between their log in names.

C'mon Jim(s)!

I'm just having fun.

DJ

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Posted By: steve k

Stephen Katz

Good enough for ya or do you need my social security number and passport ID also? I have posted in this forum hundreds of times in the past. Keep up the good work!


edited- Steve- I know you have but we never knew your full name...I think it's only fair given the nature of the threads lately...thanks for not taking it personally. It wasn't .. (leon)

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have never and will never posted under anyones name but my own on any forum.

Jim Crandell

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Posted By: MikeU

"Man, you've got a lot to learn about how corporations operate. Sure they'll stick to the guarantee, as long as it doesn't get out of hand - if it jeopardizes the life of their business by costing them too much money, then they'll change the guarantee. It's as simple as that."

Steve K,

Thank you for the advice.

Lets put my naivity to the test. My short term business predictions are as follows:

1. Doug Allen will change his policy about removing wrikles and this will be put in writing. This will happen because the grading companies (PSA & SGC) will confirm in writing that removing a wrinkle is considered an alteration.
2. SGC will put in writing that if a wrikle appears on a card or was missed initially, very hard to distinguish, the card will be covered by their guarantee e.g. no card above SGC 80 should have a wrinkle.
3. PSA will not support in writing what is stated in #2 by SGC.