OT-Sandy ? Cuban, Mexican, or Italian ?

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Posted By: jP

This is offtopic but i am hoping someone can help me out some more.



Vincent "sandy" Nava (seated on the ground in the middle) who played for the Providence Grays from 1882-1884 is considered one of the 1st baseball players in the majors of latin decent. But what remains a mystery is where he is actually from, some say Cuban,Italian, and some say Mexican.

http://providencegrays.org/Old_Grays/Vincent_Nava/vincent_nava.html

according to the link above his mothers death certificate lists her as mexican. But others say his dad was in the service and Vincent was born in Cuba but they did not register him there and instead in San Francisco.

http://bss.sfsu.edu/tygiel/hist490/19001918/knowsnorace.htm

Ive used all the search tools online to find information about him but ive found nothing reputable or any solid evidence. If someone has actual fact about him or knows of a good reference or site plz let me know. thanks in advance to anyone who can help.



my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

JP I could not get links to work - Peter

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Posted By: fkw

take out the ">" and they will work. Its a glitch in the edit system. If you edit a post with a link in it, it messes the link up. I always redue the link if I edit a post.

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Posted By: jP

i wasnt aware of the link issue on this forum. I fixed it, hope some of you guys can get me additional info.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Vincent is not a Spanish language name, and that as his given name would support a theory that his dad was an American in Cuba or Mexico. Native Mexicans and Cubans use the name Vincente.

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Posted By: jP

David i read somewhere that alot of foreign players back then would change their name sometimes to appeal more to the fans and writers. Also Nava does not sound like an American last name i wonder where his father might have been from.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: barrysloate

I do remember on several occasions handling this cabinet card of the 1882 Grays and despite the presence of both Wrights, Radbourne, and Ward one of the key selling points was the presence of Nava. We always knew he was a player of color and I think we assumed he was Latin American, but never knew for sure where he was from. I know that doesn't answer your question, I was just sharing a recollection.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

If you go to houseofnames.com and enter 'nava' it gives information about the origins of the surname. In this case it appears that his extended family came from a northern region of Spain called Navarra.This doesn't explain when or where he immigrated to North America, though.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I just looked at both linked bios, and they both say he was an American of Mexican descent. The one at first calls him Cuban, but at the bottom makes a correction and says Mexcan. Looking at his picture sketch, he looks Mexican or, as is the case, Mexican American.

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Posted By: jP

so i came across this site dedicated to cubans in baseball and it has a history etc. they have Nava listed as cuban.

"1882 Sandy Nava becomes the second Cuban and Latin American to play in the US Major Leagues..."

http://www.cubanball.com/timeline.html

so i sent an email to the site and to my surprise i got a quick response and a good answer but still seems something is not right this is what this person says:

"Thank you for your note. There has been much debate regarding the ancestry of one Vincent "Sandy" Nava. I have read so many different accounts of his ancestry that at this point I have decided to leave him alone. The account which led me to list him as of Cuban decent came from Angel Torres, Fox Spanish Language Broadcaster and Baseball Historian. He has documented evidence that he says comes directly from Nava's descendants stating that he was born in Cuba and brought to San Francisco as a baby were he was inscribed. I have also read the writings of researchers, who state that his mother was Mexican or at least Latin. According to some SABR researchers his real name was Vincent Irwin. And some researchers list him as Italian-American. Anyway until I see irrefutable evidence of his ancestry I will remain neutral on mister Nava."

Cesar S. Lopez
Network Manager
Miami-Dade Aviation Department
305-869-4044
http://www.cubanball.com


i dont know guys im leaning more to think he may be mexican/american born the son of an american serviceman and a mexican mother(they are pretty women)in san francisco who kept the last name of his mother maybe pops wasnt around or even knew of Sandy. This is just my thoughts.

Would like to know the truth.




my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm not sure why his dad's name can't be Nava, and can't be of Latin American descent.

If reports are that someone or his parents came from Latin America, that his mother was supposedly Latin American, he has a Spanish last name and he has black hair and dark skin-- 99 out of 100 times means he has Latin American heritage. A Spanish last name, black hair and dark skin alone would be about proof. If a Mexican or other Latin American has black hair and light skin, that typically indicates they are of Spanish (from Spain) descent. Latin America has many indiginous people (majority) who typically have dark skin along with black hair. Many Latin Americans have both Spanish and indiginous heritage.

To me, if you establish that his last name is Spanish (which may have already been established above), it's safe to say he had Latin American heritage. I suspect someone said Italian as Vince is a common Italian American name.

Unlike most of Latin America, Brazil was conqured by the Portuguese. Thus, Brazilians speak Portuguese instead of Spanish, and will have Portuguese last names instead of Spanish.

My boss was Mexican and liked Italy. When I asked him if he spoke Italian, he said, "I just speak Spanish and add an 'o' after every word."

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Posted By: jP

Very true David i agree with you. Im sure he is latin, now remains is he cuban or mexican. i would like to think because of his skin color and his last name (which by the way NAVA is more common within the mexican race, i actually knew a couple people with that last name) that he is going to be mexican/american. until i see reputable proof im sticking with that.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If someone has Spanish looks, you can't place where there're fom from a picture-- after all the Spaniards were in Mexico, Argentina, Cuba, Chile, etc etc. However, there are many different types of indiginous people in Latin America (and North America), with different looks and from different areas of the land. A particular indiginous person from Mexico will often look distinct than a Chilean, etc. So if Nava had dark skin, you likely can find an educated opinion as to where his ancestors were probably from. If a Russian came to you with a picture of a 1800s Ojeibwa indian, you can make a fair guess that the pictured was native to the United States/Canada, and not Chile or Ireland.

My opinion is you should find some Mexicans and Cubans and ask them if the guy looks like he's from Mexico or Cuba. I'm neither Mexican or Cuban, but my vote is that Nava looks Mexican. Of course, it's possible that someone with Mexican blood could be born in Cuba then naturalized in the US. A military dad could easily be hopping between the countries. Even this way, many would still call themselves Mexican American as they are an American by nationality and Mexican by blood. The Cuba bit would be a footnote.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

With no intent to offend here, I have a question regarding colored ballplayers:

What percentage of ones heritage has to be able to be traced to Africa in order to qualify for that status (ie. a colored ballplayer)?

If zero, what are the qualifications?

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Posted By: jP

David again i have to agree with you. i really never thought about the way you put it. I am mexican\american (damn proud to represent 2 awesome countries)and to me he looks more mexican, crap he kinda looks like some of my uncles i met when i had the beautiful oppurtunity to live in El Palmar in Jalisco Mexico for 2 1/2 years. Its that aztec skin tone

i also am very close to a family from Cuba for over 25 yrs. and i just got to say that i have met alot of cubans thru them and almost all of them if not most are light skinned colored.That big family goes way back in that country. Today in Cuba the generations of families are more darker skinned.Seems more that way since Castro took reign. Just a thought i want to express strictly if we were to assume by looking at Nava picture above.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My cousin is a Potawatomi, and where she lives you have to be at least 25 percent American Indian to be legally classified as an American Indian

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Posted By: barrysloate

Gil- to answer your question, if they threw you out of the league and told you never to play again, that was a high enough percentage. It didn't need a numerical quantification.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

That is my understanding as well, Barry. And McGraw's sales attempt with Chief Tokahoma/Charlie Grant was based on a perception/opinion criteria, rather than a fact basis.

However, even with the strictest interpretation of that criteria, one would think that errors were inherent. And that some non-colored persons were excluded from playing, while some colored were included.

Who are these players who were colored, but not viewed as such?

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Posted By: Rick

Im Cuban...there were very few indigenous people in Cuba when the spanish got there.

They was never enough population to be mixed...

In Cuba you are either white, black or mixed...Palmeiro actually looks like a cuban sterotype...most people dont look like that.

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Posted By: Chad

A lot of people consider him to be a light skinned black and it's been argued that his ML career, despite his strong performance in brief trials with the Senators, never took off because people were skeptical of his whiteness. Also, a lot of people suspected Babe Ruth of being black, founded or not. He was often called the N word on the road and black fans, especially in D.C., considered him their "secret brother" in the big leagues. And of course, all of this just goes to show how silly our ideas of "race" are.

--Chad

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Estalella was half-black like Tiger Woods.

-Ryan

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Tiger Woods is multiple races. His mom is Thai and his dad is mixed including black. If 25 percent is the rule (and I'm no saying it is), Tiger would qualify as both Thai American and African American. However, as he is proud of his mixed background, he refuses to assign himself to one race. Some African Americans didn't like that he didn't call himself African American, even when he pointed out he is mostly Thai. Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow, wrote in an article that Tiger's approach was fine with her, as he was proud of all his ethnic background, including his black background. She wrote that she'd only have a problem if he avoided a label as a technique to distance himself from his ethnic background.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

David,

You're right. I didn't know that but just looked it up and Earl Woods is 1/4 Native American, 1/4 Chinese and 1/2 African American.

So Estalella was twice as black as Tiger Woods, yet debuted in the major leagues in 1935, twelve years before Jackie Robinson.

Why isn't this a bigger deal?

-Ryan

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Yes Chad, that was the name I couldn't remember: Estalella. Was half black, as Ryan said, and his mother was Cuban, if I remember correctly.

Edited to get the spelling of the player's name correct.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Gil,

Estalella was 100% Cuban. My understanding is that his mother was black.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Ryan:

Is it possible that I got the relationship here a little off-kilter? Well, yes. I didn't think so, really, but if you say so, I accept it.

But in my own defense, Estalella's existence and status is not exactly "news". Awareness of this individual, heritage, and relationships are decades old.

So yeah, my recollection appears to be faulty.

I guess that I need to check in order to verify what difference this makes.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Gil,

I don't understand your last post.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Craig H

Not that it could be much help, but I know a girl with the last name Nava. I think she told me she's Mexican(though she was born in Germany)

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Posted By: jP

So it seems that Nava is a more common last name with Mexicans. Still nothing solid to prove it though.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The problem with the Nava tracing is that the story is Vincent's mom was Mexican, and one would guess that Nava is his dad's given last name. If his dad's name is Nava, it would appear his dad himself would be of Spanish and/or Latin American heritage. With a paternal Spanish name, this could explain the current confusion, as perhaps (perhaps) Vincent's mom was Mexican and his dad had some Cuban history. If so, an old article might correctly (if incompletely) say that Vincent had Cuban background and a different article might correctly (if incompletely) say Vincent was Mexican American.

Of side note, my mom's scarce maiden name is convenient in that everyone with the name not only came from the same country but are blood related. If I meet or read about a stranger with the name, I know we're blood related ... On the other hand, my dad's paternal ancestors didn't have last family names and invented a family name when they immegrated to the United States, meaning the name is entirely American.