Who can you compare Derek Jeter going back to 1869.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Is there any player that has had as big of an impact that Derek Jeter has on the Yankees? Look at how many division titles they have, and World Series wins! Maybe Mickey Mantle, Mickey Cockran or Lou gehrig? Any thoughts?

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I dunno, but that might be the ugliest baseball card I have ever seen...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Phil Linz.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

How about a coach's impact? Has anyone had a bigger impact than Leo Mazzone had on the braves? Look what happened to the Braves this year without him.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I would say George Steinbrenner allowing Jeter to play for a $200 million dollar team hasnt hurt either...

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

There was that Ruth guy!!

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Posted By: Bob

Joe Tinker.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you want to go all the way back to 1869, George Wright would be his equal. Great hitter, great shortstop, super athlete.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...Joe DiMaggio.

Even old Joe's teammates say so. It was the subject of a NY Daily News article, perhaps as recent as last weekend.

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Posted By: dennis

chipper jones has as much value to his team! if your looking for a yankee....joe dimaggio.

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Posted By: Dave Seaborn

I'll refrain commenting on Jeter since I absolutley despise the Yankees and would not be able to give an objective opinion. (If you can't say anything nice...)

I've got to respectfully wonder about Leo Mazzone though. He's gotten an amazing amount of credit for the Braves, but how much of that was just talent? After all, now that he's left Atlanta he's failing miserably here in Baltimore. Looking at the ptichers who pitched for Baltimore last year (apples to apples,)all of them save one (Bedard) has actually had their ERA's go UP!! Where's this guru's magic we heard so much about? Plus, this year he vouched for John Halama and (ugh!) Russ Ortiz - both projects failed horribly. Just an O's fan venting!

Now, back to Jeter...

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Im with you on that, Dave, the Yankees do not inspire.

Although, they have had some inspiring players. Gehrig and DiMaggio are two (maybe the only two). Clearly Jeter is not in their league, however, he does do what he does (I think).

And what he does is most akin to what John McGraw did as a player (and yes, Jeter is also not in McGraw's league - in any sense). Perhaps more like a Pepper Martin, although I don't know enough about him to draw sufficient parallels.

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Posted By: Rhys

Derek Jeter is (in my opinion) The most over-rated player in the history of Baseball. I get so tired of hearing about the intangibles he brings to the table. The fact is that he is a .314 career hitter with about 15 home runs a year, 75 rbi's, and 115 runs. Good stats - yes, clutch player - yes, popular with the ladies - yes, a real difference maker on a team that does not surround him with all stars at EVERY position - NO. If he did not play for the Yankees, nobody would know him or care, and he would not have ANY rings or perhaps not even a chance at making the hall of fame.

I went to BaseballReference.com just out of curiousity to see who REALLY is the most comparable player to Jeter. ANd the answer is........................

Ray Durham

So go ahead, tell me all about the intagibles again and again and again and again and again.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Rhys, that is the pretty much the same way I felt about Mattingly in the 80s. Put him on the Twins and Hrbek on the Yankees and we would be hearing about how great a 1B Hrbek and he would have gotten the Gold Gloves that he got and maybe more. The last truely great Yankee was Mantle.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: jay wolt

Rhys - the top ten compared to Jeter on that list had 5 HOFers in there
incl Jackie Robinson. All in all, not bad company.

Similar Batters View in Pop-up
Compare Stats
Ray Durham (844)
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Lou Boudreau (813) *
Jackie Robinson (807) *
Jay Bell (805)

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Ty Cobb's stats are awesome. But he is, who he is in our eyes, because of intangibles.

IMHO.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't think anyone here can speak with any certainty about Cobb's intangabiles. What we do know for certain is the incredible stats and that is why most of us are in awe of him as a player.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Now really....you cannot compare a present day player's performance with someone
of 1969....much less 1869.

When you compare Jeter to his contemporaries these past 10 years, he comes out
pretty high in my book. And, what are you "naysayers" going to say when he gets
the MVP award this year ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: jay behrens

MVP? Morneau!!!

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: fkw

MVP of the Yankees is ...... Rivera.

So how can Jeter be the MVP?

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I was listening to WFAN in New York about 2 weeks ago and happened upon a conversation involving the notion that Jeter was as talented a ballplayer as Joe D. This is beyond absurd. (Another good place to go is thebaseballpage.com to get a read on just about any player you want. You can look it up, as Casey once said.) I agree with Rhys in that Jeter is very over-rated: if he didn't play in New York he would not be getting as much attention as he does. Yet I think there is much to like about Jeter: he is a very smart player in an era of the dumb; he hits the ball where it's pitched; he puts the team first (although this has been a Yankee trait for a long time). In the 13 years he played, Joe was in 10 World Series and the Yanks won 9 of them. He was the key player on those teams; there are many key players on today's Yanks. Joe is one of the top 5 or 6 players of all time. Mantle is the last great Yankee, maybe the last great player. Jeter would be lucky to place in the top 150 of all time.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't know, but living in NY and watching Jeter on a daily basis, I got to tell you the guy is a really good ballplayer. I don't think the Yankees or their fans feel he is overrated. Personally, I think he's on track for Cooperstown.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't think anyone is arguing that he is not an outstanding ballplayer. The problem is with the hype that comes with playing for Yankees. As has been pointed out, he could do exactly the same thing and the team win the same number of titles and he would go unnoticed comapred to the hype he gets out of NY. Just imagine if Johan Santana were pitching for the Yankees, we'd be hearing about the second coming of Christy Mathewson. Or a more accurate, all the hype that surrounded Dwight Gooden when he burst on the scene.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

and would vote Jeter the MVP, even though I'm a diehard Twins fan who would love to see Morneau represent. Jeter is the consummate middle infielder and leader, and his plays in the big games accentuate his value. I really don't know what you want a SS to do that he can't. He averages around 110 runs a year, .315 BA, just shy of 200 hits, 20 SB, and plays solid defense. Throw in 15 HR and 75 RBI from the two hole, and that's pretty damn good. As Jay Wolt pointed out, his numbers compare favorably to 5 HOF middle infielders, and that doesn't include defense and intangibles.

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Posted By: Anonymous

--

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Posted By: Jeff

I would compare his leadership and intangibles to Barry Larkin

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm a New Yorker and not a Yankee fan and I have to admit that Jeter is truly a great player. As another poster wrote, his numbers as a shortstop and (mainly) a leadoff hitter have been fantastic. He's also a fine fielder, a very smart player and has intangibles out the a$$. He is a true winner who always gets the big hit and makes the big plays. You guys keep bringing up Mantle in your arguments against Jeter; uh, many people believe that Mantle was highly overrated due to the team he played for. Here's something to think about: after this year, Jeter will have had just two less seasons than Mantle of 100 RBI or more - and he's got a few years to catch Mantle. No doubt Mantle was the better offensive player and we never got to see what he was truly capable of over the long haul due to injuries and his drinking, but Jeter, as a shortstop, has damn good numbers over his career and is the consummate team player and winner. He's also going to end up with over 3000 hits - how many players in that club can we call overrated???

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jay - Please revisit your comments:
"I don't think anyone here can speak with any certainty about Cobb's intangabiles. What we do know for certain is the incredible stats and that is why most of us are in awe of him as a player".

And recognize that we have seen these intangibles in others. Jackie Robinson, Maury Wills, Pete Rose and many others; And by their impact can reasonably estimate their effectiveness in a single individual.

Although it is true that we did not witness the sharpened spikes threatening the defense then, nor more recently, that part of the personna of the man is similar to a baseball Mike Tyson equivalent.

How much attention will a pitcher be able to dedicate to Crawford's at bat with Cobb leading off 1st?, 2nd?, 3rd? What is the impact of intimidation? Serious, imminent fight intimidation? Every day, every play. Only Rose has had that intensity in recent days. And he was far less intimidating, albeit quite intimidating.

His stats reflect more than a small portion of his impact on won games, but they only portray a part of the picture. Ruth's stats speak volumes, but Ruth's intangibles do not compare. This is why some would rather have a t206 Red than a Goudey Red.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

I always thought Barry Larkin was one of the most overrated players in baseball during his career - he was a decent enough player but he could never stay healthy. That some people push him for the Hall of Fame is beyond ridiculous to me.

I don't care for Jeter because I absolutely loathe the Yankees, but have to admit he's a great player. He's a bit overrated, to be sure, but that goes with playing in New York where great players are compared with the greatest and the bums become bums of epic proportions (case in point is A-Rod this season). Jeter's consistency and reliability have been his greatest contributions to the team and if he played for Oakland or the White Sox I'm sure he would be one of my favorites.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

The proof that Jeter is overrated is "the catch". Diving into the stands to make one of the greatest plays ive ever seen to quote John Sterling. Everyone knows the catch. When i heard it on the radio on the way home it sounded like the greatest catch ever but when i saw it on replay i said wow that was a nice catch too,i cant wait to see "the catch".....but it never came. It should be referred to as "the bad landing" because the catch was almost routine,it was a running catch,you see about 5 better each day of the season. Its Jeter tho so a running catch in fair territory mind you,with a bad decision(most people wouldve slid,or jumped over and stayed on their feet) at the end.

David Wright actually made a diving catch where he actually dove into the crowd to make the catch last year,much more difficult than the Jeter catch yet ive seen that catch about 200 times less and hes from New York! The even better proof of how overrated that catch is because it was done by Jeter is the fact Pokey Reese made a better catch in the same exact game!! Find a tape of the game,watch the catch by Reese in the same spot and tell me in all honesty its not a better catch.

"The catch" won Jeter 2 gold gloves because he was not the best defensive shortstop either of the last 2 years.Tejada and Vizquel were better in 2004,Cabrera was much better in 2005 and he was a former gold glove winner who earned it.

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Posted By: BcD

Buddy Biancalana !!!!!!!

The man who graduated from the same high school as Robbin Williams

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biancbu01.shtml

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Gold Gloves are awarded by the managers and coaches, not sportswriters. Although I might disagree with a pick or two, I am willing to concede that those guys pretty much know what the hell they're talking about, and that they're not oohed and ahhed by any one particular play.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Don't give the managers and coaches too much credit - Rafael Palmeiro got a Gold Glove in 1999, a year in which he was at first base for 28 games and DH for 135. I'd be willing to bet that those who vote put about as much thought into it as I do concerning what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow. The managers and coaches tend to just vote the same names year in year out until the regular winners either retire or go into a steep and noticeable decline.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

If they tend to vote the same guys year after year, why is it Jeter didn't win his first until '04, when they could have given it to prior winner Vizquel? Seems to me they saw something in his defensive play, and I'm willing to bet it was more than just "the catch".

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

As I said, voters TEND to vote for the same guys year after year - take a look at any list of Gold Glove winners by position and you'll see that award winners often go in streaks. Jeter won in 2004 and 2005, and it would not surprise me to see him win several more in a row until the next guy comes along to win four or five in a row.

No doubt the "catch" was a big factor in building the perception of Jeter as a good fielder - seeing the same play over and over on SportsCenter will be a factor in many people's perception whether they would admit it or not. Many people have nothing on which to base their opinions about fielding other than Baseball Tonight highlights or what they read in the paper, and many sportswriters aren't well versed in fielding statistics.

Here is an article about how John Dewan and Baseball info solutions charted every single ball put into play for three seasons and came up with a plus/minus rating for each player based on how he stacked up against the average player at his position.

Jeter ended up 30th at -64 over three seasons, with Michael Young (-73) the only regular shortstop who fared worse. Adam Everett of Houston had the best rating.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=newstatsmakedefenderslik&prov=tsn&type=lgns

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Posted By: Cobby33

Johnnie LeMaster

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I disagree Todd and ill use your point to validate it. Before that catch Jeter was thought of as average with a very strong arm and medium range but after that catch he had great range and seeing it everyday along with mentions of his play in the playoffs vs the A's and his jump throws which i consider showing off.You wouldnt teach a kid to catch a grounder in the hole,take 2 steps,jump and then throw.You either throw on the run,circle around the ball,or slide and plant on your back foot.When you make long throws common sense is either get rid of it quick or plant and get something behind it.He does neither with his jump throw and i think youll see alot of kids come along with these improper mechanics because of him.

You add them all together and somehow he went from middle of the road to the best basically overnight which obviously is a flawed thinking

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Posted By: prewarsports

I think Jeter is a Good player. Good, not great. He might make the Hall of Fame and if he does, I won't complain because there are less worthy people in the Hall. I get so tired though of all the Sportscasters in the country hyping this guy up like he is Ozzie Smith and Babe Ruth rolled into one guy. They all talk about how "If they had one guy to pick to start a team and build around him, it would be Jeter."

I REALLY like the Barry Larkin comparison. He was an MVP who won a World Series with his "intangibles" as well. Good, not great, and a border line Hall of Famer who never had the luxury of playing in New York. I think that comparison is Dead on!

Lastly, if Jeter wins the Gold Glove this year over Yuniesky Betancourt of Seattle than the voters need to stay up late and Watch some Mariner games. And if you disagree with that statement, you need to stay up and watch some Mariner games as well. He is by far the best defensive Shortstop in the American League and should win his first piece of many Glove-Shaped Bookends this year.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

we'll have to agree to disagree, although frankly, I'm not sure I understand your last post. You still seem hung up on Jeter's catch, but I sincerely doubt the managers and coaches put much stock in just that one play. Then you say he shows off with jump throws from the hole. Again, I have to believe the coaches and managers would not be impressed with a show off, in fact, they may be turnedd off by it. I personally don't see him turn that play that often, but I have to believe he has his reasons. Maybe he feels more comfortable that way, does not want to plant on a slick or uneven infield, I don't know. I do know that Jeter is one of the most fundamentally sound players, in all phases of the game, that I have seen in many years.

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Posted By: Jay

I like Prewarsports analogy. I am a Yankee fan and probably watch at least 125 games a year so I have a pretty good feel for how Jeter plays. He is a good fielder who can make the difficult play but occasionally botch the easy one. He has good range, especially on bloops, and a pretty strong arm which is most noticeable on his jump throws when going deep into the hole on a backhand. As a hitter this is his finest season in a while if not his best ever. He doesn't have alot of power but he usually makes contact. He is an excellent base runner who steals more bases than you would expect based on his only slightly above average speed. His best quality is that he plays heads up ball and never takes a play off. I think that he is a shoe in HOFer. In my mind he is a much better all around ball player than Cal Ripken or Ozzie Smith, or most of the shortstops in the HOF for that matter. Combine that with his number of championships and you would expect him to easily make it on the first ballot.

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Posted By: jay wolt

"I get so tired though of all the Sportscasters in the country hyping this guy up like he is Ozzie Smith and Babe Ruth rolled into one guy"

This statement a few posts ago got me thinking.
Ozzie Smith is a Hall Of Famer that was a light hitter
w/ little power but was a great defensive short stop.

Would you rather have an OK defensive player w/ good range
like Jeter that scores 100+ runs a year, always has around 200
hits (has 199 right now)and can get you 90 RBI (has 95 right now)
and hit ya .315 (hitting .339 right now)
OR would you rather have a great defensive player w/ little offensive
#'s?
Give me Jeter anyday over the Wizard

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Posted By: sagard

Jeter is a great player. He has had some great postseasons, but also had some brutal series that directly contributed to the Yanks losing. Specifically the Sox in '05 and and the D'Backs in '01.

His defense is the only part of his game that is vastly over rated. He does fine but his first step is always late. He makes the "catch" because of speed and does have a nice arm.

I still think Jeter should be in center and A-Rod at short, but that ship has sailed and hopefully after a another disappointing post season the Yanks will send A-Rod packing. Maybe for Ramirez of all people.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Derek Jeter is an outstanding player, and the fact he's a Yankee has very little to do with it (other than the rings). If the reason for all the Jeter "hype" was solely because he was a Yankee, then we'd hear the same hype for Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, Jorge Posada, etc.

If I were to compare Jeter to some past player, it would have to be some sort of weird cross between Pete Rose and Ernie Banks. He's got Banks' enthusiasm and raw talent, and some of his pop. He's got Rose's hustle and work ethic, and his ability to make things happen.

-Al

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I dont think you can compare Jeter with other generations of players just based on the fact the midset at shortstop is much more different and id have to think he wouldve been moved to a different position back in the 70s when Smith started.Too big for SS,too much power potential and in the minors he was a horrible defender.You also have to remember Cal Ripken was a 3rd baseman to start,and because of his size,probably a better suited position for him,but he was an underrated defender.

Todd i just meant,coaches and managers see highlights and hear talk just like the rest of us.Theres poor choices for gold glove every year. Jeter doesnt even deserve consideration this year with Bentancourt,Cabrera,Uribe,Gonzalez and Michael Young all much better choices but id be willing to wager even money with anyone that Jeter will win it again.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Youa re right, Bernie Williams doesn't get the press that Jeter does, but if you put him on another team, would we even know about Williams name outside of a boxscore? There was a time when the NY media was trying to pass him off as the next Mantle. That doesn't happen with any player from any other team. All it takes is one good season with Yankees and the NY media will hypoe the player beyond believe. Just imagine the hype if Ichiro played from Yankees. We'd have the second coming of Cobb without the nastiness.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, Bernie Williams is a lifetime .300 hitter with nearly 2500 hits and multiple gold gloves. Somehow I think he'd rate a mention outside of a boxscore if he played outside of New York. What non-NYers don't seem to appreciate is that the NY press is way harder on NY players than any other market is on their players. That's the reason so many guys can't handle playing here and flourish elsewhere. When ARod played in podunk places such as Texas and Seattle he was the greatest player of all time. In NY, the guy wins the MVP one year and the next year he's a joke in NY. If Bernie Williams played in Minnesota there would be a statue of him outside the stadium. In NY, Bernie is a well-respected because of his professionalism and abilities. And I can't recall him ever being put on a pedestal of the level that Joe D ever was.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Mattingly: You have to divide his career into two phases, pre-injury and post. In the years before he hurt his back he had numbers that would have put him in the hall if sustained for a normal career:

1984 153 603 91 207 44 2 23 110 .343
1985 159 652 107 211 48 3 35 145 .324
1986 162 677 117 238 53 2 31 113 .352
1987 141 569 93 186 38 2 30 115 .327
1988 144 599 94 186 37 0 18 88 .311
1989 158 631 79 191 37 2 23 113 .303

Had he been on a really solid team his totals would have been even better in the RBI and run categories. Afterwards, he was a decent average little power hitter. It is like two separate guys.

Jeter: He is a great player whose consistency is his enemy. Reminds me of Eddie Murray or Charlie Gehringer in that regard; send him out and he hits .310, scores 100x, drives in 75, plays a solid infield, etc. This year is his first breakout season at the plate. As a shortstop he certainly rates the HOF.

Williams: Bernie is a really good player, not great, but really good. I'd compare him to Henrich, Furillo, Grace, Dom DiMaggio, etc. Not a HOFer but a long, sustained excellent career.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

True about Mattingly; he was a lock for the HOF if he didn't get hurt. The guy was really a great player and his numbers bear this out. He also played the field with grace and was the ultimate professional. This is why he still is revered in NY long after his career ended. I think this is what non-NYers don't realize: if you play with class, don't complain and show up and play hard every day, the press takes care of you. If you make excuses, dog it, or otherwise behave like a jackass, the press will run you out of town. So many guys have come to NY and been driven out of town on a rail by the press and the fans. It's by far the hardest place to play in the country and only the strong survive. What has happened to ARod this year is the perfect example. The guy wins the MVP and the NY press and fans still hate him. Why? Because he makes excuses, doesn't deliver in the clutch and is perceived to not be a winner. That's why Scott Brosious and Tino Martinez are so revered here while ARod, a far superior player, is not. By some people's reasoning, once ARod won the MVP he should have been treated like Babe Ruth. No one is saying Jeter is Albert Pujols; but at SS he is a great player and the consummate winner. And he has won on the biggest stage with the most pressure and done it with grace and humility. NYers care about winning, period. No other city holds its players to such a high standard. Don't blame the NY press for inflating this guy's accomplishments because they don't. Honestly, I can't think of many sports figures in NY that are given a pass or made to appear greater than they are.

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Posted By: Rhett

I just love how on a team with an average salary of $200 million, it is JETER's intangibles that win championships for New York.

On a team with the best coaching staff money can buy, it is Jeter and his clutch hitting who wins championships.

On a team with an all-star at every position for the last decade and a half, it is Jeter and his gutsy plays who wins championships.

On a team that has the absolute best pitching staff they can buy (not develop), it is Jeter and his great leadership that wins championships.

On a team with arguably the best shortstop in history (ARod- who was forced to play out of position, then lambasted by the press for not being Brooks Robinson, and getting no support from his "teammate" and leader, who minus this year is notorious for starting seasons slowly, yet still not publicly supporting his teammate who started slowly, who makes a mere 19 million as opposed to the overpaid guy who makes 25 million), yet if they win this year it will be JETER who gets the credit for winning another championship for New York.

-Rhett

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't buy the argument about the Yankees buying their titles. LOTS of teams have big payrolls, and LOTS of teams overpay their players.

Jeter is the catalyst on the Yankees, and he has been that for ten seasons.

Odd to me that with people talking about the best team money can buy, it's Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano - along with Jeter - that kept the Yankees in it this year. It's Mariano Rivera, Bernie, Jeter, and Posada - all home-grown guys - that formed the nucleus of the club. And it's TRADES that have rounded out the bulk of the Yankee roster - I believe there are more free agent acquisitions on the Boston roster than on New York's.

-Al