1870's Boston team composite photo

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Posted By: ramram

Hey Barry...I know it came up in an earlier discussion on another thread that you were the high bidder on that fantastic early Boston composite...what did you end up finding out about it? Was it composed of Warren Studio CDV's as expected? If so, can you post us some photos??

Rob M.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

IIRC Barry said he sent it off to his conservator and that it was all one piece?? Don't remember and I can't find where he mentioned it here on the forum.

I'm sure he'll chime in here soon.

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Posted By: ramram

I still have the auction earmarked in "My Ebay". For those not familiar with this piece....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&item=260011909333&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Rob M.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It turned out to be a very interesting piece, and my intution aboout it was correct. While it appears to be a composite display with 11 oval photos, it was actually constructed using 11 Warren CdV's that were mounted to the back of a cardboard mat with the faces visible through the oval apertures. My conservator took it apart as I intend to get the mat cleaned and I wanted to know exactly what was inside. I am still on vacation without reference materials, so I was only able to do some cursory research. What I've discovered is the team is actually 1872, and not 1873 as originally thought. Jim O'Rourke is not part of it and Ryan is, and he was not on the 1873 team. Most of the images are recognizable from the 1873 Boston cabinet, and now we know they were photographed a year earlier. I think this large composite was constructed to be reshot, perhaps for a CdV, but none have ever shown up. Another fascinating thing is this originated from a group of pieces that almost certainly belonged to Harry Wright. My guess is that Harry was given this directly from the photographic studio. I also believe that this is the only complete set of these Warren CdV's known. Single ones pop up with some frequency, but I've never seen a complete set before. I don't recall seeing another Al Spalding, although I believe another board member says he has seen one. I'm sure I'll find more out about this in time.

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Posted By: Rhys

I was the underbidder on this item and thought for sure I would win it, but congrats to Barry on getting a nice piece. I would have gone higher had the backs of each one had the Warren Studio mark been present, and it was hard to tell with the corner clipping to know how much of the photo portion was affected. It was obvious that they were photographed by Warren, but obviously not on the traditional Warren mounts so it then becomes a tricky question of "Are they Warren Studios CDV's or are they Warren Photos similar to the CDV's"? It would not have made good sense for Warren to waste pre-printed CDV's for something he was planning on gluing anyways. Either way, it is a spectacular piece and I have talked about this with barry already, but these do almost certainly come from Harry or George Wrights estate and the poster that this person bought with these rare photos pretty much confirms this fact. Now the question is, are these worth more as individual photos or as a complete composite with the "Wright" provenance (bad pun I know).

Great piece and I wish I could have won it, but if you have to get outbid, at least it was to a classy guy like Barry.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: runscott

I have 10 images that I had accumulated from the 1872 warren cdv set - never saw Spalding until now. The clearer ones were cdv's I owned - others came from auction catalogs, etc.

I believe these were actually printed after the 1872 season, but before the 1873 season, but still haven't unpacked all of documentation since the move. When I locate, I will post here.

Note the championship pins some players are wearing.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Like Rhys I contemplated whether they are worth more individually or as they are. I will try to get some photos posted- Rob Morgan said he would help me with it as I am computer illiterate, but the condition is compromised. They are on actual Warren mounts but they had the back layer removed I guess to make the composite easier to construct, and the corner clips run pretty deep. In the end I will clean up the mat and leave them intact. They really should be kept together as they are a complete team. Also wanted to add that Cal McVey is with the group, and his last year with Boston was 1872, which further confirms the date.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Wanted to add that's a nice group Scott posted, and when he mentioned the pins something came to mind- on one of the CdV's the pin appears suspended in midair over the player's head, and not on his shirt. When the images are posted can someone explain that one to me.

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Posted By: ramram

Thanks for forwarding the pics Barry. I may have reduced them too much but I didn't want to take up too much space.
Rob M.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Sweet!
Sweet!

Btw, that Boston pin is one of the best looking pins ever made.
Lelands had one a few years ago and it was spectacular.
You can see a color picture (small) of it in the 1984 SABR 19th century pictorial issue.

Go Sox!

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Posted By: martindl

Clipping aside, as a set they're fantasic.

Nice to hear you're going to keep them together Barry.

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Posted By: ramram

There must have been a real necessity to have the image as flat as possible. The photographer who assembled the original photograph mounted the CDV's on thin mounts (as opposed to the typically thicker mount of the time) and he also went to additional lengths to precisely clip several of the CDV's so that they didn't overlap (see link below from the original auction). I doubt that it would be all that important to have it this thin just for the purpose of framing the image. The only thing that comes to my mind is that the photographer wanted it as thin as possible so as to be able to photograph the composite image to produce a cabinet card from this original. The photographer would need the composite image as flat as possible so that he/she could produce a well focused image. Any variations in thickness would create areas slightly out of focus in his new image.

Rob M.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260011909333&indexURL=3&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

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Posted By: rmacpa

barry,

which conservator did you use to separate
the warren cdv's from the cardboard mat?

roger

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Posted By: barrysloate

His name is Gary Albright and he works in upstate NY. I've been using him for 15 years. He is going to clean the mat for me and then place the photos back exactly as they were but he will use archival adhesives instead of that awful glue they used in the 19th century.

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Posted By: runscott

Barry, what a great find! Based on the 3 previous partial sets I'd seen, plus this one, I'm guessing that probably a set for each player was created, plus one for the cabinet that yours was used to create. I wrote an article for VCBC a few years ago, based on research I had been doing on this set - I was fascinated with Jimmy Ryan who the Red Stockings really had no need for - in fact, no team he ever played on had a use for him. I thought it would be fun to write additional articles about obscure old-time players, but probably only to me! Here's a pic of the McVey cdv I had:

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It should be noted that 1800s studio photographers often made gigantic
mounted albumen prints and used these photos as the 'original art' to make
the smaller cabinet cards. You will see these mammoth photos around once
in a while, and there are a few by Joseph Hall used to make his famous cabinets.

Also, to make many of their composite image cabinet cards, the studio often made
giant displays like this-- then rephotographed the display to make the cabinets.
The photographers were often creative in their designs. There is one notable
cabinet card that has a wreath around the team images, which means the photographer
placed the live green wreath around the physical photos and photographed that.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- Ryan is the most interesting player in the group because the encyclopedia does not show him ever playing for Boston. I don't have the December 2005 Sotheby's catalog handy but I remember the Warren cabinet set they offered also had a player who was never found to play for the Red Stockings and I believe that too was Ryan. Perhaps he was signed to play for them but was gone before he ever got into a game.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Here's a complete Fraley Rogers CDV without the "Flying Pin" and a closer scan on how composite images were made (2 decades later than Barry's, but you get the picture)





Hi Scott, I remember that "Finding Johnny Ryan" article you wrote. It was a pretty good research work.