Autograph Authentication issues...happy to be back posting :-)

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Posted By: Bob S

Hi all. It's nice to feel well enough to post again after a difficult summer healthwise.

I need to create some income, and I wanted to get some opinions from our many expert board members.

I have a substantial # of autographed items (baseballs, 8x10's, etc, of players like Ted, Joe, Mick, and combinations of those 3, as well as an 8x10 dual Mick/Maris, a Dimaggio family 8x10 with Joe, Dom and Vince, (either vince or Dom is a cut...I can't remember which), a dual Mick/Mays ball and a baseball with Pie Traynor, and Art Rooney, as well as some other Pittsburgh related folks, most of whom I can't recognize.

My main question is is it absolutely necessary getting these authenticated by Jim, Richard, PSA/DNA etc, and if it is who would you use (I realize that this is very subjective) to get the best final net price including authentication fees (assuming sale through eBay) (ugh). My feedback is 100% for around 500 total transactions since I joined in July '97).

Also are the any members who feel comfortable in their own authentication ability, who would buy any through B/S/T unauthenticated?

I also forgot I've got several 500 HR club balls most with the "original 11" and 1 missing Mick, and a couple mini bats with the same type of players.

Thanks to anyone who has an opinion on this "difficult" issue.

Again, it's great to be back, and cmoking, I hope you got my recent email.

Bob

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A lot of the stuff is very desirable, and you would have no trouble selling them for good money with certification form PSA/DNA, JSA or Richard Simon. I think you can get group discounts from them. DiMaggio, Mantle, Williams, 500 HR balls, etc are in high demand these days. A Mantle/Maris and Mantle/Ted/Joe photos with LOAs would sell for big bucks.

You could also consign it through an auction house and let them worry about the details of getting the LOAs. I would think any of the big auction houses would consider taking a lot like that.

For stuff like that, my question is where you got them. If you purchased them from a respected autograph dealer or source, like Simon, then outside authentication is less of a concern.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Different authenticators may charge different fees for the different players. For example, a Willie Mays authentication may cost $15 while a Loug Gehrig authentication might cost $150.

Having the authentication would probably help in selling the items although I figure that the certificate of authenticity is more of a piece of paper that doesn't really guarantee anything other than it is the opinion of an expert (lets hope and I'm not sure who can define the word expert) that the signature is real.

While we're on the subject, I thought I'd relay an interesting story about a Gehrig autograph and Jim Spence. On the first day of this years National I brought a Gehrig signed Laurel card with me. I wasn't going to have it checked but I figured I'd bring it as trade bait. I saw the Jim Spence booth and it dawned on me to have it certified at that point in time. I purchased this a few years back and it's just been sitting in my collection. In any case I flashed the card at him from a short distance and he said that he authenticates Gehrig autographs. I was a bit impressed because he barely saw it but he knew what it was. I figured what the heck, for $150 it would be worth it to have it certified. I came back an hour or so later and he said I'm sorry, it's not his signature but that of Gehrig's wife. He knew this because in 1939 Gehrig wasn't signing many autographs because of his physical condition. I departed but then it dawned on me that he's probably seen a lot of these and he knew before he had my credit card that it was not Gehrig's signature. That pretty much left a bad taste in my mouth. Rather than just being up front and indicating there's a great chance that it may not be Gehrig's signature he took my money. If it were me and that was my business I'd have tried to be a good guy and tell the customer about this up front so that they wouldn't have to waste their money. I wouldn't look at it as a loss of $150, I'd have looked at it as trying to instill faith in the collecting public and not being a sheister. Instead he said nothing. Suffice to say that I probably wont be doing anything with Jim Spence again. Call it sour grapes if you want but that's my experience and perception of authentication.

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Posted By: edacra

I'm curious why any signatures would command a premium rate of $150 to authenticate unless it's a rare case involving heavy duty research - something I can't imagine you get when it's done by a guy sitting at a card show booth.

I always like to know the circumstances of the signing more then anything. How was it obtained, when was it obtained, etc. In that regard, a bulk signing done in a private office with some certificate doesn't really appeal to me as much as hearing about an autograph in the home team parking lot after an old timers game.

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Posted By: Bob S

I guess the days of selling unauthenticated autos without irrefutable provenance are gone for good.

And for the lower value items, say worth less than $100, there seems no way to sell those at all.

Thanks, again.

Bob

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Posted By: DJ

I think it's a bad thing what Jimmy did to you.

Unfortunatly, everything nowadays must have the stamp of approval of one pretty much one of the major three forces in the authenticating game. Psa/Dna, JSA and GAI, as well as Richard Simon.

If you have ever seen how the authenticating process is done, you'd actually shake your head. In most cases, it's someone in the business that isn't well known matching the signature you have to a signature on a screen. The more we utilize the services of these "experts", the more their error rate will increase and the more their error rate will increase, the more we recognize their errors and making them public. Simon's fine site does that.

I was at a show several years ago when a man who had just gotten Ernie Banks to sign an item was asked by a member of a top notch authenticating team if he wanted to have it authenticated. The man, in a wheel chair and rather elderly went off: "Why the f--k should I get you to tell me this is good for $20 when I saw him sign it just a few minutes ago????"

If I were you, I would send the whole lot to Mastro or Lelands and have them deal with it in a lot. Authentication fees can really bite you in the ass and Mastro does phenomenal with lots like all the items you are talking about.

My two cents...

DJ

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Posted By: Joann

Wow Fred. I'd be kind of mad too.

But what would happen if authenticators only took money of the auto was real, or if they actually "authenticated" it? It would only be a matter of time before the integrity of authenticators was called into question because of the financial incentive to call it real. Not real? Not paid. That'd be a mess.

So lower charge if not real? Same issue.

I agree that he probably knew when he saw it, and I'd be spitting nails about spending the $150 too. A nice unofficial comment sending you on your way without spending the money might have been possible. But too much of that overall would deteriorate the credibility of the profession.

Thank goodness I'm not called on to try to figure out the best answer to these things, because I am far from being wise enough for questions like this!

Joann

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Posted By: cmoking

Fred, it sounds like Spence solicited you to authenticate your auto. Did he call you over and tell you he could authenticate the auto for you? If so, to me, that's different than if you walked straight up to him and asked for his service. It's a small difference, but in this case, I think that small difference is the difference between looking like a jerk (he looks like a jerk based on your descriptions) or doing business as normal if you had given him the auto looking to get it authenticated.

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Posted By: cmoking

DJ wrote: "If I were you, I would send the whole lot to Mastro or Lelands and have them deal with it in a lot. "

I think this is a great idea.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

King,

He didn't solicit me. I just happened to be walking by his booth and something just clicked. I tell you what, if he did solicit me and that happened then you're right, he'd be a total jerk (worst than that). Quite honestly, he seemed like a nice enough person.

DJ,

I wish I was there when that guy got the Banks autograph. That's just too funny.




Overall, I can't complain too much because at least I wont be selling it as a Lou Gehrig autograph. I tell you what, I'd feel like crap if I sold this thinking it was real and later found out it is what it is... Spence could be wrong but I wouldn't bet money on it because he's been around enough to know the ropes and the basics of these autographs.

I suppose it would have been a nice gesture if he were to have given me credit for future authentication(s) but I wouldn't have much use for it because I usually don't collect autographs unless they are on checks, documents or contracts. I do have a few pieces from the old show days that I kind of feel the same way as the guy with the Banks autograph... I saw the players sign the thing so why bother with the authentication. I think I'd go off on someone if they were to call one of those pieces into question. The sad part is that I'd have a difficult time selling one of those pieces unless I paid one of those guys to authenticate what I already know.

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Posted By: DJ

The truth of the matter is that Lou Gehrig's secreterial signature is a lot different than his own signature.

Matter of fact, the "Baseball Autograph Handbook", the fine book by Mark Allen Baker lists his secreterial as an authentic signature so even he was fooled in this instance.

His secreterial signature still has a little value, it's not like a blatant forgery. I have seen secreterial signatures in note form sell between $150-200.

The Ernie Banks guy was livid. Old Timers who have been collecting autographs before the birth of many of these authenticators are having difficulty adjusting to the fact that there is a need for the services of "further proof" by unknown individuals. If you never intend to sell your signatures, what's the point of getting a second opinion? Especially after you just went through the cow ropes to see that person sign the item.

DJ

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Posted By: edacra

I used to chase down autographs at the player hotels, and MLB functions when I was younger, and there were these older guys who had been doing it so long they remember Barry Bonds from when he was a toddler. I picture their homes must be busrting at the seams, and I'm sure every major city has a hand full of guys just like them. How the hell do collectors like that cash out? That's why I really think provenance is more important at some point.

I stopped collecting autographs around the time people started authenticated them, and issuing COA's. I even have a Ted Williams signed photo I'd love to sell, that I got directly from his son, but there's no letter proving it.

Bob S., where did you get your stuff from?

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Posted By: jeffdrum

Ed,
I guess I'm one of those older guys (47) that has been chasing autographs for years (30). My house is not bursting at the seams, I have over 20,000 auto'd items but the lion's share (80%) are on gum cards which are fairly easy to store. As for cashing out, that will be my children's problem. I do not collect to sell, I occasionally trade with trusted friends in order to help each other out on sets that we aee working on. It is my secondary passion next to prewar cards of course. They of course crossover as I have several auto'd pre-war cards as well including some I have shared scans of here before including T206s, Cracker Jacks, Goudeys, etc. It is great fun and my son enjoys it too!

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Posted By: edacra

Hey Jeff, You're a brave man tackling those sets! ha. Which ones have you completed?

I just remember when guy's like Kirk Gibson who were refusing to sign cards would come to town, how there would always be these hardcore collectors popping up out of the woodwork, still wearing their suits fresh from taking the afternoon off of work... desperate to get that last impossible card of their set signed. At some point, I had to give it up because it stopped feeling healthy for me. Really, some of those folks were so compulsive I can't imagine they had time to raise kids. I bet you've got some really special stuff to hand down... and hopefully very little of it will need some authenticators approval.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Bob, I believe that the top autograph authentication services will issue an LOA from a large grouping of autographs, the grouping including small time items. It's possible to get the company's sticker on the back of each item, including the financial small fries, so you would have no trouble selling the items in bulk or individually.

I still say you should first contact one of the auctions houses (Mastro, Lelands, REA, Heritage, etc) and see if they will handle the collection for you. You would get good value for the collection and the auction house would handle the entire authentication process for you.

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Posted By: Older Guys (2)

Ed,
Yeah, I am not one of the compulsive, street chasing, walk out in front of a bus types. I go to the Braves stadium 5-6 times a year when some of the teams come in. Generally involves taking the day off from work and get them when they come in. If they sign fine, if they don't fine. I do not lurk @ hotels, restauarants and the like. Most success is had inside the field. As for complete sets, I have none all the way completed but have several over 80%. Chippping away, kind of like my V100 and W502 sets!

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Posted By: Bob S

Thanks for all the great advice, stories, comments, etc.

And David, DJ and King, I will likely take your advice and submit my items to one of the big houses (any preferences from anyone as to the easiest to deal with?).

The reason I ask this is that my illness has produced a type of general anxiety, that has made it difficult to make decisions and take action on anything, and then worry in an extreme way, constantly about all aspects involved.

And since I've never dealt with any of the major houses, and don't know anyone personally at any of them, I'm quite nervous.

I apologize for mentioning this, but I thought maybe someone, if they have a lot of experience in this area, could, at their convenience, email me with any tips or suggestions as to the best way to handle this.

Again, it's a bit embarrassing, but Lyme can be a strange illness.

David and edacra, I think you folks asked where I obtained my items.

They came from many sources, during the mid to late 90's, including from our member Richard S. Most were from highly reputable dealers, and have COA's, but I'm not sure as to the current "acceptability" of these particular issuers.

I am beginning this week an organization process of all my hobby collection, and I will post the sources of the COA's as I locate them.

As an aside comment, I have recently sold off some cards (mostly t-206's and some '33 Goudey's and '40 Playballs to a very nice dealer from North Carolina, but I have come to realize that I should have had these graded because of all the "fraud" in the vintage market. I sold 3 206 commons for $40 ea., which I think in retrospect would have made SGC 40's. Not a big deal but I can't afford to be careless.

My worst sale was a very nice '54T Teddy #1, which had nice centering and corners, but which the buyer said had a slight "bend"....no wrinkle, no crease), for $100. It was very hot at the show, and I was so nervous I was shaking.

And, yes, in the late spring, I did some eBay consignment with, again, some nice folks locally, only to get poor results on the vintage stuff (raw, naturally). I feel like Homer Simpson. It's almost comical, but I decided to go locally, rather than ship them to Scott G., one of our members)who had the same consignment fee (20%), because of my fear (there's that word again), about shipping the cards to Mass. To anticipate a possible question, yes, I am taking an anti anxiety prescription (tried several, in fact), but, this d**** Lyme seems to somehow block or at least mute their effectiveness.

I want to say how thankful I am to all of you who have taken time to reply to my question, and to say I'm sorry for rambling on about these trivial details. My hobby stuff will likely be my only source of income until I reach 66 (I'm 58 now, and getting SSI disability for Lyme is nearly impossible), and I guess that contributes to my nervousness.

In my collecting days, when I had a career, I never gave much thought to the circumstances surrounding being forced to liquidate my "little treasures", and now that I must do so, it brings no joy to my heart.

Thanks, again, everyone.

Bob

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Posted By: davidcycleback

On eBay, Scott Gaynor is good dealer to consign baseball autographs to. He's a trusted dealer in that area and attracts strong bidding. I've consigned autographs and non-autographs through him. Nothing was lost (I live on the West Coast!) and I thought the $$ I got fair.

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Posted By: Rhys

I deal A LOT with autographs, and Jim Stinson would be a great resource. He accept things on consignment or for outright cash sales and ALWAYS beats other dealers in the prices he offers for things in my opinion. It would be an immediate deal with cash in your hand in a day or so and since he self authenticates, there would be no COA's needed, and no wait for the auction houses etc. I am in no way compensated by him nor would I receive a cut of anything, just refering you to a great dealer for a quick and honest deal if that is what you would be most interested in doing given your health concerns. If you do a search on the internet of Jim Stinson Sports you can find him easy enough or I can find his e mail if you want. I wish you the best in selling your items a wish for the highest prices, and if you need any help in any way from someone with 15+ years of autograph experience, I would be happy to lend you a hand for no charge at all.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Regarding the World's Fair Laurel Card with a Lou Gehrig autograph. I have never seen an authentic Gehrig signature on any of those cards from the World's Fair, nor on the 8x10 "diploma" given to kids who finished taking the sports instructional courses that the star athletes there were giving.
Every one that I have seen was signed by Gehrig's wife.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: joe

Bob, send an email to Mastro's about your autograph items. If they are interested they will get them all authenticated. I sent A HOF Great Moments and a HOF Celebrations set that had about 30 or so autographs in each set. I got these autographs at shows along with balls. They sold in their auctions. If I ever sell the balls I'll do the same thing.

Joe